Below is the exact post from Scott Lefabvre on his PUBLIC facebook page.
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February 12
This one’s going to sting a little folks…
I like women.
Both as humans and as sexual partners and either and neither and both.
As long as they do the same amount and quality of work I believe they should receive the same amount of pay and vice versa.
But do you seriously think that a sideways vagina dentata with a huge clitoris is a great logo for your feminist horror movement?
I’ve read the feminist horror film theory and criticism have you?
If that’s not a vagina dentata, then a knife plunging into a female victim isn’t a substitute metal male penis being used out of impotence frustration.
Stay classy ladies.
Oh, and anyone that finds this offensive, grow up.
Every single one of you was shoved out of a vagina at birth and if the picture on the right of the attached image arouses you, you have a serious school book sex-ed diagram fetish.
Let’s see how long this stays up before someone complains.
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George C. Cotronis For a guy who likes women, you sure post a lot of about this Women in Horror thing. Does it bother your that much?
February 12 at 3:02am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : I don’t really post that much.
This was just really striking to me.
February 12 at 3:03am · Like
George C. Cotronis Don’t worry, it’s been covered before.
February 12 at 3:03am · Like
Paul Mannering You are aware that female lips most likely evolved to mimic labia – and the reason that women paint them red is because it makes them look sexually aroused, right?
February 12 at 3:04am · Like · 4
George C. Cotronis
February 12 at 3:05am · Like · 4
Scott Lefebvre :
George C. Cotronis: Oh, good. I didn’t think I could possibly be the first one to notice the, er, “resemblance” but I wonder if it was intentional, unintentional, intended to be subliminally suggestive or other.
Paul Mannering: Yes! That’s my point exactly!
February 12 at 3:06am · Like
George C. Cotronis I’m lost as to what your point is. Women have vaginas?
February 12 at 3:07am · Like · 2
Paul Mannering I don’t have an issue with women being sexual. Feminism isn’t about being puritan. If women want to post hot vampire lips and tongues – they should go right ahead
February 12 at 3:07am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : *foreheadpalm* Are you both playng intentionally dense trying to bust my balls?
February 12 at 3:09am · Edited · Like
George C. Cotronis I’m just happy you included yourself in the image.
February 12 at 3:10am · Like · 4
Scott Lefebvre : So, I’m an asshole? Nice retort.
I know you are but what am I?
February 12 at 3:11am · Like
Paul Mannering Not trying to bust your balls Scott. Just saying that IF women want to present themselves in a sexual way – then that is fine with me.
February 12 at 3:11am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I mean, I’d be interested in having an actual conversation about the paradox of using genital iconography to protest being objectified in a supposedly male dominated genre.
February 12 at 3:12am · Like · 1
Paul Mannering I could bring some feminist women to the party
February 12 at 3:12am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I actually usually agree with feminists. My creative writing teacher in college was a lesbian that also taught women studies classes and we got along so well I took both of her Women’s Studies classes. That was an interesting experience. I really fucked up the chi of the class because I was the only man in the class, so whenever they started to get hyped up on stereotyping the male gender I was able to say, “Hey, you do know that I’m sitting right here.” It was kind of fun to be outnumbered and have to defend myself as being guilty for being born with a penis and being heterosexual for a whole year. Toughened me up.
February 12 at 3:17am · Like · 2
Paul Mannering I dealt with the same thing at nursing school. Men are pigs apparently.
February 12 at 3:18am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : Oh shit! Right! I was a “male nurse” too! *laughs*
I mean, let’s admit it, some men are vile humans that objectify women and participate in rape and molestation, and they should be buried under the prison.
But I’m not one of those men.
I do objectify women sometimes, but it’s because I find them sexually desirable sometimes.
It usually doesn’t get in the way of my taking them seriously as creators in the horror genre.
I used to be pretty well acquainted with Cristie Whiles who was a stone cold fox, that would seriously put a knife in you who also worked for one of the baddest gore effects houses in the world.
I never let her being an attractive female fuck up our friendship or get in the way of taking her seriously as a creator of killer special effects.
February 12 at 3:24am · Edited · Like · 2
Kody Boye re: I think women wear red lipstick because they think it’s pretty.
February 12 at 3:40am · Like · 10
Scott Lefebvre : Yes, but also, swollen red vaginal lips.
February 12 at 3:41am · Like · 1
Kody Boye I would hope that you’re not being serious.
February 12 at 3:44am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : Are you kidding me?
Don’t you know anything about secondary sex signs?
I’m not trying to condescend but, yes, I am dead serious.
February 12 at 3:45am · Like
Kody Boye Next time you meet with a female friend and/or aquaintance, I would like you to ask if that is why they paint their lips red. See what response you get.
February 12 at 3:46am · Like · 2
Joanna Turner Considering no other women have commented on this, I feel the need to say some things. First, as a woman I can tell you that I have never applied red lipstick with the intention of making my mouth look like a vagina. Secondly, in response to the photo, if it is a real promo, it is a bad one. If women want to stand up and present ourselves as strong, sexual creatures, throwing our vaginas in peoples faces is the absolute worst way to do that.
February 12 at 3:49am · Like · 9
Kody Boye Everyone knows you throw your vagina in someone’s face by singing about it, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcIONtkkW4Y
Queen Of Vagina: 2 + 2 = Vagina Song (Explicit)
PENIS PENIS PROMISCUOUS
February 12 at 3:51am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Kody Boye: I can’t have this conversation since you have no idea what you’re talking about. I know you’re running a survey on your wall by way of status update, but it’s not a conscious thing and a Facebook Status Update Poll among your female friends doesn’t weigh against decades of social scientific research.
It’s the same sort of research that indicates that we find people, both men and women more attractive if their faces are symmetrical and proportionate. It’s not my opinion and I’m not making it up out of whole cloth.
Go ahead and look up “Why do women paint their lips red?” and if half of the answers from relatively legitimate sources aren’t “Because of the rush of blood into erogenous zones during sexual arousal” I will eat my laptop.
If you want to really have your mind blown, look up, “Why is cleavage arousing to human males?”.
February 12 at 3:58am · Edited · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : Joanna Turner: It is a real promo, sadly, and I agree with you completely.
February 12 at 3:56am · Like · 1
Kody Boye I was mostly amused by that comment in and of itself because it was so outlandish. But, again: Next time you are with a female friend, ask if they are painting their lips to look like vaginas.
But, with that…
February 12 at 3:58am · Like
Michael Kanuckel not sure why that guy thought he had a mic-drop moment.
February 12 at 4:00am · Like · 5
Kit Power #micdropfail
February 12 at 4:01am · Like · 3
Kit Power PS – we need an ironic ‘like’ button…
February 12 at 4:01am · Like · 2
Joanna Turner I feel like this whole women in horror thing is just like, we should be recognized because we are good writers. Not because we are women that write.
February 12 at 4:02am · Like · 9
Kody Boye FYI, I put the jpeg there mostly because I thought it was funny, and because I’m not commenting on the subject anymore. Also: Facebook does not allow animated gifs.
February 12 at 4:03am · Like · 2
Selene MacLeod Only thing that would make it better is a big gush of BLOOD down both sides! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKgBTaLKR84
Vagina Dentata
A funny video my boyfriend and I made. Please feel free to link it if you like -…See More
February 12 at 4:03am · Like · 1
Kit Power RE: The ‘red lips’ thing – obviously, it’s not the ‘reason’ say, an 11 year old girl wears lipstick – she’s doing it because mummy and big sis and the pretty girls on the TV do it and she wants to be like them. But the ‘reason’ in the sense of ‘why this is a thing at all at a societal level and across many cultures and for hundreds of years’ is as Scott Lefebvre articulated – or at least very many academics who’ve spent a ton of time studying the matter think so. Thank you, now reverting to snark mode. Do not adjust your settings.
February 12 at 4:08am · Like · 2
Kit Power Also, #notcommentingonthesubjectanymorecommentfail
February 12 at 4:10am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Yeah, I wasn’t 100% about that dude anyhow. In case you didn’t know it, Kody Boye, you’re a chump and those two guys there ^ are laughing AT you, not WITH you.
1. Read this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_arousal
Learn something about your species before signing on to the internet and popping off about something you know absolutely nothing about.
2. Bookmark the preceding link, then go ahead and block me, unless you really want to go round and round. Posting a meme when you lose a discussion doesn’t mean you win a discussion.
3. I have a degree in psychology, I worked in the field for eighteen years, and I’m almost twice your age. You’re twenty-four years old. You being twenty-four means you think you know a lot more about the world than you actually do.
I don’t know you well enough to not like you, but your bravado without any wisdom to support it is embarrassing. I’m not offended by your dismissal, I am embarrassed and legitimately concerned at your ignorance about the way that the world works.
You’ve got moxie, I appreciate that.
But wisdom is intelligence meeting experience.
Sexual arousal – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org
Sexual arousal (also sexual excitement) is the arousal of sexual desire, during …See More
February 12 at 4:12am · Like · 2
Kody Boye Laughing at me is still with me in this case, mostly because I’m laughing too. LOL.
February 12 at 4:13am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : So you’re either playing stupid, actually stupid or trolling.
February 12 at 4:13am · Like
Kit Power I’m not laughing at all. Possibly because I’m a sociopath.
February 12 at 4:14am · Like · 4
Kit Power *smileyface*
February 12 at 4:14am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : Good job at “Not commenting anymore.” B. T. Dubs. #StayStrong
February 12 at 4:16am · Like · 1
Michael Kanuckel just to chime in on the original intent of this whole thing for a second, this appreciation of women in horror thing… whoever thinks horror fiction is a man’s world must not be aware of the fact that the horror genre (and science fiction) was invented by a woman. that’s my whole opinion on the matter. g’night.
February 12 at 4:17am · Like · 5
Scott Lefebvre : I have, in previous discussions suggested that there should be a Mary Shelley Awards to counter-balance the sausage party of the Bram Stoker Awards. That, I would get behind.
February 12 at 4:18am · Edited · Like · 4
Selene MacLeod Seriously, though Scott…I do have to ask… Why are YOU bothered by it? It’s one picture. What would your ideal Women in Horror Month picture be? The purpose behind WiHM is to celebrate women horror writers, and if sexuality is part of that, then so be it… Only about 25% of horror writers today are women, so I don’t think I need to point out that WiHM serves a deeper purpose within the field. That is, if women are 51% of the population, what is it about horror as a genre that appeals or doesn’t appeal to women? I’d also like to see a Non-Whites in Horror Month, because if the GENDER balance is skewed, so is the ethnic balance… I also wonder if some of the problem is in the classification of writing by women (or persons of Colour). Women write mysteries or paranormal romance or women’s literature or misery lit, but the gatekeepers seem loath to say “This is a horror story by a woman.”
February 12 at 4:18am · Like · 5
Selene MacLeod As for the “Mary Shelley Awards,” the HWA has introduced a scholarship (named for Mary Shelley) to be awarded to a woman each year to further her education in the horror field. So, yeah…
February 12 at 4:26am · Like · 5
Scott Lefebvre : I think we’re arguing the same point, Selene, except from different perspectives.
As I just said, “I have, in previous discussions suggested that there should be a Mary Shelley Awards to counter-balance the sausage party of the Bram Stoker Awards. That, I would get behind.”
And I would, an award that celebrates the accomplishments of women in horror I would truly celebrate.
But WIHM just seems about self-promotion and I have to see a whole month of misguided promotions which sexualize women that participate in the horror genre when sexual objectification and discrimination is the very thing that they claim is being used against them.
Also, this is not a diversity seminar.
We don’t require that the same amount of men participate as exotic dancers and women participate as garbage disposal technicians.
If you want to have a discussion about why the gender split is not equal or representative of the populace and the species, fine, maybe there is something about horror that men just get into more easily, maybe there is a bias against women participating in the horror genre creatively as creators instead of victims.
But the promotions I’ve seen for Women In Horror Month have not seemed to inspire those dialogues and that is what I find annoying about the whole thing.
February 12 at 4:27am · Like · 1
Selene MacLeod Hm…Have you actually clicked on the links and looked at the roundtables and blogs and interviews with women writers? Or tried Malina Roos’ “Was this written by a man or a woman” exercise? I don’t have a problem with shameless self-promotion–hell, isn’t that the reason most of us are ON Facebook?–and the underlying purpose is maybe just to introduce you to some writers you haven’t checked out before.
February 12 at 4:31am · Like · 8
George C. Cotronis There’s no ”proof” that women paint their lips red because they want them to look like vaginas, because no proof can be had. Stop being dumb, you’re harshing my buzz.
February 12 at 4:40am · Like · 5
Kit Power #strawman
February 12 at 4:43am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Yes… but female writers.
I can’t read everything everyone posts on the internet or I’d never have time for anything else.
I’m sure there are some people doing WIHM month right, I have no doubt that some people have their heart in the right place, and I assure you that I have no personal bias against women participating in the practice of writing in any genre.
Coincidentally, I recently realized that the first person mentioned in my author bio is a woman, Helen Hoke. It was truly a coincidence, and, yes, all of the other influences are men, but one is gay and one was a racist and a homophobe. The world is an interesting place. Not everyone’s going to get along.
My problem is with the exclusionary trend of some of the things being done this month in the name of equality.
Reversing a discrimination does not fix it.
That is my point, so allow me to repeat it.
Reversing a discrimination does not fix it.
Having “Women Only” film festivals and “Women Only” anthologies is not only as bad as the gender discrimination against women that is generally accepted to implicitly exist, but it is actually worse because it is a literal and actual discrimination based on gender.
Am I the only person that realizes this?
Making it opposite month and to borrow a metaphor from the civil rights era “making the white people ride on the back of the bus” doesn’t eradicate racism.
It only reverses it.
Most of the people that I’ve seen celebrating women in horror month seem to have a decidedly misanthropistic (in the literal sense, pardon the pun) angle.
I’m just kind of getting bored with people expecting me to feel lucky that I was born with comparatively light skin and a penis.
It’s not my fucking fault and I’m working with the cards I was dealt, so quit trying to label an entire gender as the oppressor.
February 12 at 4:43am · Like · 1
George C. Cotronis Haha. Hokay.
February 12 at 4:43am · Like
George C. Cotronis How much do you hate black history month?
February 12 at 4:44am · Like · 5
George C. Cotronis Wait wait hold up, you think ”white people riding on the back of the bus” is a legitimate thing?
February 12 at 4:45am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : “There is no love in your punches.”
George C. Cotronis, I’m not sure why you persevere in the discussion when you don’t seem to be having any fun with it. Let’s have some fun. Throw in some emoticons if you’re going to dismiss my sincere interest in discussing the paradoxes inherent in Women In Horror Month by comparing it with “black history month” and suggesting I’m a racist because we don’t agree. That’s a pretty serious allegation and you don’t know me that well, and not at all in person.
February 12 at 4:47am · Like · 1
George C. Cotronis You said something, I’m trying to gauge if it was just a reference or if you sincerely believe it.
February 12 at 4:48am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : Yes, George C. Cotronis, because none of us here are adults and have never heard of metaphors or the use of analogy. Of course I believe that ”white people riding on the back of the bus” is a legitimate thing and in no way meant it as an allegory to explain my point that reversing a racist policy makes it just. I also never use sarcasm or irony and wouldn’t recognize it if I saw it. I also think the moon is made of green cheese.
But, sincerely, I don’t think you’re having any fun with this.
It’s decent typing practice for me, but I think Kody flagged the pic on his way out of the conversation and hopefully out of my world, so when Facebook reviews the picture for being offensive for portraying a textbook, non-erotic image of a vagina, this entire conversation thread will disappear into the aether.
Isn’t social-networking awesome?
February 12 at 4:54am · Like · 2
George C. Cotronis It’s gonna take months.
February 12 at 4:54am · Like
Selene MacLeod No…white people at the back of the bus isn’t the same thing. See…Every day is men in horror day, and every other month is men in horror month, whether we want it to be or not. WiHM isn’t trying to exclude men–it’s trying to bring attention to women writers. And some of the comments I’ve read, that women “can’t write horror” because they’re not violent or sadistic enough are both disturbing AND telling. So cozy up with some vag horror and join the party, instead of sitting in the corner complaining about it. You’ll be happier, I promise.
February 12 at 4:56am · Like · 9
Scott Lefebvre : Really? Oh, cool.
Hey, I can tell you’re a smart person.
I like dueling with you, but condescension is just another form of character assassination.
Let’s skip the ad hominem slashes and have an actual discussion because this is something I am legitimately interested in.
February 12 at 4:56am · Like
Kit Power I’m always fascinated* by the way internet communication inevitably leads to people interpreting each others statements in the most negative possible way, rather than assuming the best motive and/or intent. *by which I mean profoundly bored. *smileyface*
February 12 at 4:58am · Like · 7
George C. Cotronis But listen, I’ll be honest with you. While I think a lot of the stuff you say is seriously fucked up, wrong and incredibly sexist, I haven’t been outraged enough yet to block you or unfriend you. It’s probably because you’re so fucking smug about it that I know that nothing I will ever say or do will get through your thick skull. Whenever I do say something, you say some nonsense about strawman arguments and accusations. Basically, you’re misguided as fuck and nothing you say makes a lick of sense to anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together. Leave facebook, go to a con or something and talk with some women who are smarter and better than me at explaining why Women in Horror month is a good thing and why you shouldn’t be upset about it. That’s my genuine advice, because facebook ”friends” are never gonna tell you straight that you’re saying dumb shit. Godspeed.
February 12 at 4:59am · Like · 10
Scott Lefebvre : Selene, this is my problem.
It is EXACTLY the same thing.
You say “every day is men in horror day”.
Right, except when the woman that wrote the Twilight series cashes her royalty checks.
Or when Anne Rice cashed that check when they optioned Interview With The Vampire.
Every day isn’t men in horror day.
Every day is just another day.
Some men sell more books than some women.
Some women sell more books than some men.
The fact that there are supposedly more male authors working in the horror genre is not the world’s problem any more than that fact that there aren’t more male exotic dancers.
And with the recent advances in self-publishing making the playing field EXACTLY level as far as gender is concerned it will be interesting to see if the suggested trend balances it out.
The problem we are having is that I do not agree with your initial claims that “Every day is men in horror day, and every other month is men in horror month”.
As for: “And some of the comments I’ve read, that women “can’t write horror” because they’re not violent or sadistic enough are both disturbing AND telling.”
I never have nor never would say that and I don’t agree with that either.
I’m not sitting in the corner.
And I’m not unhappy.
You decided to comment on a comment thread in response to a picture I posted pointing out the use of a secondary sex characteristic to market a month supposedly dedicated to righting the injustices done in the name of horror.
I’ve read about ten Anne Rice books, all of the Mists of Avalon, I enjoy the work of Erica Jong, mention Helen Hoke in my author bio and I have a fragment of a poem by Sappho tattooed on my left wrist, and a Frankenstein tattoo on my right shoulder, I think that I am passing familiar with female authors. Thanks
February 12 at 5:09am · Like · 2
Selene MacLeod BWAHAHAHA! I just think it seems silly to hang a big accusatory net over one symbol as somehow an indication of WOMEN AGAINST ALL MEN ANYWHERE ANY TIME BECAUSE THOSE PENIS BASTARDS SHOULD DIE!!! The simple fact is that you haven’t really “discussed” anything. YES, red lips and lipstick are designed to mimic a hot vag with lots of bloodflow to it and a signal of sexual availability. Anyone who’s studied anthropology and as you pointed out secondary sexual characteristics knows this. You make a couple of fair points in that it’s not fair or balanced to outright EXCLUDE someone on the basis of gender, however, you’ve only made half a point here. What would be solution to the problem you started with? That is, what do you think would be a better symbol for Women in Horror Month than a sideways vag? Criticize all you want, but offer a solution as well.
February 12 at 5:09am · Like · 4
Selene MacLeod Note, I posted that one second before your comment appeared. Anne Rice, Mary Shelley, and Stephenie Myer… Fine. But in a list of “Best horror authors,” the fact still remains that very few women’s names make the list.
February 12 at 5:13am · Like · 3
Scott Lefebvre : You say, “Anyone who’s studied anthropology and as you pointed out secondary sexual characteristics knows this. ” and I thank you for this, and someone should let Kody know. But I digress.
“What do you think would be a better symbol for Women in Horror Month than a sideways vag?” you ask?
And, seriously, I’m sincerely glad you asked rather than just tossing insult bombs like our friend George.
Something other than a sideways vagina with teeth.
I’d like to suggest the Bride of Frankenstein.
I know that she was created by two men for another man, but at least the character was written by a woman.
February 12 at 5:13am · Like · 3
George C. Cotronis I did you a favor no one else seems willing to do for you.
February 12 at 5:15am · Like · 2
Brendan Philips Yeah Scott Lefebvre … What’s the Solution ?
Popcorn … (Crunch)
By the way … $0.99 jerry only is half a point up on you and that should boil your ass
February 12 at 5:15am · Like · 2
Selene MacLeod She was an interesting character, for sure. Much more so than the much misaligned Bella from Twilight! Ha! I’m not clever enough to insult you (or George). I think we’re too quick to jump in and wag our fingers in this day of the Internetz anyway.
February 12 at 5:15am · Like · 1
Selene MacLeod I mean maligned. It’s 5am…
February 12 at 5:15am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips If I can be the idiot for a second … Isn’t that fanged bloody lip pic a piece from the True Blood marketing campaign just cropped tighter ?
February 12 at 5:20am · Like · 3
Selene MacLeod Could very well be, although I hope the designer at least used a public-domain pic!
February 12 at 5:21am · Like · 3
James P. Harding I may be wrong but I think what bothers Scott about this is he thinks women’s work in horror can stand on its own merits. It doesn’t need to rely on a sexual “gimmick” in order to be noticed and taken seriously. Pitching sexuality perhaps cheapens and demeans work which otherwise holds its own.
Marketing is always gimmicks though, might as well use whatever advantage or opportunity you have to turn the heads and drive sales. I see the point (I think), but to me it’s shrugworthy.
Even so, the precedent is confusing, do you want me to take notice because your work is good or because you can make boners? I don’t think it has to be a dichotomy but when some women want meritocracy while others use sex for attention and advantage, the mixed signals are bewildering.
February 12 at 5:21am · Like · 3
Scott Lefebvre : Did you fuck right off, George C. Cotronis , you insulting cunt? Or are you back to add literally nothing to the conversation aside from insulting static. Don’t get me wrong, I mean “cunt” like the Brits do, in an affable way, like “chap” or “mate”. Now go play with all of those other people that you think have thin skulls and a lot more brain cells than I do. By the way, you smug fuck, I used to be a convention vendor and worked 24 conventions a year, I’ve been personally thanked by Judith O’Dea and Kyra Schon for the work of my company to help them celebrate their characters. I’ll wait while you IMDB them you fucking know-nothing dick. You know fuck all nothing about me but think that it’s perfectly cool to insult me in a comment thread of something I posted when I would never have the brazen audacity or conceit to insult you by commenting on any of the stupid shit you habitually post. So, yeah, smug. Pot kettle black. So say something constructive or apropos to the conversation or fuck right off.
Now… as I was saying…
February 12 at 5:23am · Like · 2
Tristan Vick Men are and always have been the privileged class in our culture, mainly due to the already established patriarchy which lends itself to the net effect of women being lesser privileged, whether it is in terms of job pay, employment opportunities, or something else.
So to complain about women enjoying one small privilege, when you are a member of the privileged class is bigoted. You simply have no reason to complain about it.
And since you draw attention to the vagina as a criticism of a woman’s privilege here, it also makes this post sexist.
If you truly wanted to be dispassionate, you would neither cite gender nor sex, but simply debate the award ceremony on the basis of the quality of writing regardless of the fact that it’s for women only.
February 12 at 5:26am · Edited · Like · 6
James P. Harding “The patriarchy” is a bunch of rubbish, sexist really.
February 12 at 5:27am · Like
Brendan Philips In the utopia … This convo would never happen as all are created equal and all are judged solely on the merit of their work. Alas , the world as is … Sits imperfectly. While 11 months a year business being as usual should suffice. While on that shining 12th month the slighted gender gets the preverbal spotlight to raise awareness of the exceptional work of those who have transcended their golden stars.
February 12 at 5:27am · Like · 2
Selene MacLeod Yay, Camille Paglia! Use what you got to get what you want. But as a woman and as a feminist, that’s one of the difficult lines we have to walk. Women, some might say, are tied to their bodies and their sexualities in a lot of ways. Too sexually desirable or not sexually desirable enough. Do you celebrate your femininity or do you suppress it? If you are sexual, you’re a slut, if you’re not you’re either a prude or a slob. Men have their own anxieties but (and speaking in BIG GIANT BROAD GENERALIZATIONS here) the world doesn’t seem to be as invested in men’s bodies as they are in women’s bodies. And since a great deal of some kinds of horror is related to sexuality and the body, does that then echo down into women’s horror writing? And since women and children, being physically weaker than men in some ways are so often placed in the role of victim in horror stories, I’ve always believed that’s what turns women off horror in general.
February 12 at 5:27am · Like · 2
Tristan Vick Patriarchy is rubbish? Is that your professional opinion as a historian, James?
February 12 at 5:32am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : Selene MacLeod, your last paragraph is what I have been saying all along, or at least trying to when given the chance and people stop throwing insults instead of discussion.
“And since a great deal of some kinds of horror is related to sexuality and the body, does that then echo down into women’s horror writing? And since women and children, being physically weaker than men in some ways are so often placed in the role of victim in horror stories, I’ve always believed that’s what turns women off horror in general.”
I said that you and I are basically in agreement.
Also, I have no idea what you look like.
We have never met, and for all I know you’re a penguin with a laptop living in the south pole.
But I value the content of your comments.
This is why I like having these discussions.
I like having my opinions challenged and coming to an agreement with someone and getting to know them better.
People that are bad at “argument” or when facing defeat resort to personal attacks and insults usually fuck off and good riddance.
Selene, I hope you stick around.
I have enjoyed having a conversation with you.
February 12 at 5:32am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips This is why I’ve always dug pseudonyms … They will have to stand as the equalizer until the genre is taken over by asexual 4th dimensional beings
February 12 at 5:37am · Like · 5
Scott Lefebvre : James P. Harding? Tristan Vick?
You, are two gentlemen who will have beautiful philosophical arguments that will make the non-existent angels weep.
So feel free to talk amongst yourselves.
February 12 at 5:38am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : CIMMISIBIY
February 12 at 5:38am · Like · 1
Selene MacLeod CIMMISIBY CIMMISIBY SIM-SIM-SHERREE… Oh, what, it’s not the Chim-chiminey song from Mary Poppins? Carry on…
February 12 at 5:39am · Like · 2
Brendan Philips Sadly … No , it is not
February 12 at 5:40am · Like · 2
Brendan Philips This would be a cool panel discussion at an upcoming Con … Possibly , possibly. I’d love to host
February 12 at 5:41am · Like · 3
Scott Lefebvre : It’s a private joke between me and Brendan.
We had a room-mate that owned a porno that was titled “Cum In My Mouth I’ll Spit It Back In Yours” that made his room-mates writhe with icky discomfort whenever we mention it. So I like to drop a CIMMISIBY every now and then so he knows I’m paying attention and appreciate his participation.
February 12 at 5:41am · Like · 3
Selene MacLeod Or a podcast/roundtable.
February 12 at 5:42am · Like · 3
Selene MacLeod Snowball! I watched that scene in Clerks, too…
February 12 at 5:43am · Like · 4
Selene MacLeod If it’s menstrual blood it’s called Angel Kissing. That’s a title but I haven’t built a story around it yet…
February 12 at 5:45am · Like · 4
Brendan Philips I think the smiling bloody red lips is bit on the nose while at the same time just horrifically unoriginal. While I’m no author of horror or any other medium … Just a simple entertainer paid to stand around and look pretty while saying sarcastic quips … I do challenge those with the creative prowess to use the talents to put forth a better effort … You wanna be taken seriously , don’t go for the cheap pop. Is hacky and trite.
February 12 at 5:45am · Like · 3
Brendan Philips Oh of he only knew how famous his antics have become
February 12 at 5:46am · Like · 2
Tristan Vick I can simplify my argument here… women can use whatever logo they want. Whether it’s lips of one kind or another, my objections would all be trivial, if I had any. So it makes no difference to me and certainly isn’t worth getting worked up over.
February 12 at 5:46am · Like · 2
Brendan Philips Yeah … But it’s almost 6am here where time actually matters , and you’re gonna get the notifications anyways my man so you might as well jump in with some thunder and pick a side … Red or blue pill !?!?
February 12 at 5:49am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Tell you what Selene MacLeod, I have a challenge for you.
I’m planning on putting out an anthology a month for the next year or so.
At one point, we can put one out called “Angel-Kissing” or whatever.
We put out a call, but figure out how to remove the gender from the entrants and then do a co-jury process to select the entrants based on merit, totally gender blind.
Then we see what we end up with at the end. Interested?
February 12 at 5:49am · Like · 2
George C. Cotronis Nah, I didn’t fuck off, I enjoy reading your misogynistic tripe. I do find it funny that you got offended though, didn’t your original post include the line ”If you get offended grow up?”
February 12 at 5:49am · Like · 3
Brendan Philips Haha … I can attest that Scott is the least misogynistic fella on planet rock. That’s simply just a poor interpretation of the subtext .
February 12 at 5:52am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : If you get offended by a picture of a vagina suitable for a textbook. Don’t worry George C. Cotronis I’ve been trolled before by better. James P. Harding trolls like a God compared to your petty sniping. I even liked your last comment. You get an A for effort and a gold star.
February 12 at 5:53am · Edited · Like
James P. Harding No Tristan sorry, I’m just some chucklehead but I think the patriarchy concept is rubbish because, well, women are the privileged class, are they not? 9 out of 10 homeless people are men, men disproportionately die in the workplace, men have always been expected to sacrifice themselves because “women and children first.” I am all for equal rights, but not for elevating one sex’s rights at the cost of the other’s. We shouldn’t hijack this thread though, and again, I’m just some chucklehead so feel free to disregard everything I’m saying and do so with the greatest of satisfaction.
February 12 at 5:53am · Like
George C. Cotronis I’m not trolling you. I mean, I’m waiting to get blocked, sure, but I’m not really trolling. I just think you need someone to shake you really hard until the dumb sexist shit falls out. You keep talking about how women deserve equal pay, but then add ”as long as they work as hard.” You said you don’t care about gender, but sometimes you might read a woman because she’s attractive. You think that women try and promote their writing with their vaginas. I’m not making that shit up, nor am I misconstruing what you said. It’s obvious that other people (like Selene) are picking up on it but when you get called out you stick your fingers in your ears and go lalalalala.
February 12 at 5:58am · Like · 5
Brendan Philips Scott … We will be discussing how you got battle rap dissed to the point of a Beyoncé mic drop over a lunch very soon.
February 12 at 5:58am · Like
George C. Cotronis Did you know that 100% of deaths during childbirth were women? Makes you think.
February 12 at 6:00am · Like · 3
Kit Power ‘You keep talking about how women deserve equal pay, but then add ”as long as they work as hard.” ‘ – so you think women deserve equal pay regardless of whether or not they do equal work? *confused face*
February 12 at 6:00am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips So wait … His argument that equal pay for equal work … Offends you ?!? I’m not following the logic. That’s essentially what equal pay is my local chapter of the Misfits enthusiastic Friend
February 12 at 6:00am · Like · 3
Scott Lefebvre : George C. Cotronis: Coincidentally, Selene and I came to a point of agreement and will probably be working on a project together sometime in the future.
But you’re till here, arguing for the sake of arguing. *sighs*
Here’s another gold star…
February 12 at 6:00am · Like
George C. Cotronis I think it doesn’t need to be said. If you put that there, you’re implying something.
February 12 at 6:01am · Like · 1
Kit Power ‘You think that women try and promote their writing with their vaginas’ #strawman
February 12 at 6:01am · Like · 2
Kit Power ‘I think it doesn’t need to be said. If you put that there, you’re implying something.’ Why should Scott be held responsible (let alone judged as sexist) for implications you draw, rather than what he actually said?
February 12 at 6:02am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : Kit Power, he’s just going to say that I said that. Don’t you know not to swat at a bee? It might sting you and if a bee stings you, you’re annoyed but the bee dies.
February 12 at 6:03am · Edited · Like
Brendan Philips I’ve been on the convention circuit … All over the USA and Canada. Try and find me a table of women that don’t come in the full on corset bursting regalia to try to get your $20 to purchase their horror themed thimble cover.
February 12 at 6:03am · Like · 2
George C. Cotronis Those sluts.
February 12 at 6:04am · Like · 3
Brendan Philips Women make up for their unfair position in Society by taking full advantage wherever one can be taken in the battle for the almighty dollar … This can’t be the first time this concept has come across your path
February 12 at 6:05am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips And bless them for it …
February 12 at 6:05am · Like · 1
George C. Cotronis I’d argue that that’s a pretty sexist way of looking at it. Maybe they just like corsets or showing their breasts or something.
February 12 at 6:06am · Like · 2
Kit Power I think, George C. Cotronis, you might be better served engaging with what has actually been said, rather than assuming implications and straw-manning. It’s possible you have a valid point there somewhere, but the methodology precludes locating it at present. And Brendan, I KNOW you meant to say ‘SOME women’…
February 12 at 6:07am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips How else did I end up with that horrible THIRST movie and the subsequent autograph by the wonderful young woman who starred in it whilst coming home from Indy … After we solved the mystery of the werewolf origins
February 12 at 6:07am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Holy. Fucking Shit.
Brendan…
I think he’s on the ropes!
I mean, you should never feed a troll, but still.
And even though that other dude was a dick for rewarding himself with a Beyonce mic drop, I am rewarding you with a Beyonce mic drop and a gold star since George doesn’t get any anymore for losing the argument and just being mean-spirited and not making any logical sense.
February 12 at 6:07am · Like · 2
George C. Cotronis Please stop using the word ”strawman,” you’re using it wrong. It’s not a magic word that wins the argument.
February 12 at 6:08am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : Neither is using a #strawman, dick.
February 12 at 6:08am · Like
Brendan Philips That just happened
February 12 at 6:08am · Like · 1
George C. Cotronis You know what, I don’t think I’ll be doing that interview with you man. You’re kind of an asshole.
February 12 at 6:09am · Like · 3
Kit Power Stop using strawmen, and I’ll… oh, wait, ninja’d.
February 12 at 6:09am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : I thought that was a given.
#strawman
And who fucking cares?
I didn’t know who you were two months ago, I won’t remember who you were two months from now.
February 12 at 6:10am · Like
George C. Cotronis That’s pretty fast.
February 12 at 6:11am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Oh, you’re not going to let me provide you with an opportunity to promote yourself?
Geez. I guess I’ll just have to follow-through with everyone else that has completed their interview in a timely manner, like half of the people in this discussion.
February 12 at 6:12am · Like
Brendan Philips Yeah … Send me one of those fucker
February 12 at 6:12am · Like
Scott Lefebvre Oh, I almost forgot… gold star!
February 12 at 6:12am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips What’s a strawman and why do we sometimes hash it ?
February 12 at 6:13am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips Can I give you a nickname … I’m great at that
February 12 at 6:13am · Like
George C. Cotronis Go ahead.
February 12 at 6:14am · Like
Brendan Philips I see by your page you fancy a bit of the Scandinavian Black ?
February 12 at 6:15am · Like · 1
Kit Power ‘You think that women try and promote their writing with their vaginas’. Scott hasn’t said this. So that’s either #strawman or #readingcomprehensionfail . I assumed the former because you seem pretty bright, but it could cut either way. PS It’s only inaccurate by one word – if you’d said ‘SOME women’, it’d still be a crude-to-the-point-of-misleading rewrite, but it at least wouldn’t be the outright falsehood it currently is. Again, I’m genuinely open to the suggestion that you may have a point – I just haven’t seen it yet.
February 12 at 6:15am · Like
George C. Cotronis Nah, I just wasn’t very interested, sorry I snubbed you.
February 12 at 6:16am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : BTW, George, Brendan isn’t trying to troll you, he’s actually quite nice and really does like giving people nicknames.
February 12 at 6:17am · Edited · Like
Brendan Philips Corpse Paint … Old gods … Dark forests type stuff
February 12 at 6:17am · Like
George C. Cotronis Guys, guys. Brendan said above that women who are bad writers (I assume that’s what he means because he called their books crappy) wear corsets (and I guess show cleavage?) to sell books. You are arguing this is NOT sexist. Please tell me if it’s sexist or not because I’m about to lose it.
February 12 at 6:17am · Like
Brendan Philips * Some … Haha
February 12 at 6:17am · Like
George C. Cotronis Some. Fine.
February 12 at 6:18am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I know you weren’t very interested, I get context references. I’ve sent out hundreds of interview surveys. Sometimes they come back, sometimes they don’t. I don’t have to chase anyone. Oh, and by the way? I interview women too and don’t make the interviews about their gender.
February 12 at 6:18am · Like
George C. Cotronis Does that make it less sexist?
February 12 at 6:18am · Like
Brendan Philips Nope … I’m referring to Convention Carney Culture …
February 12 at 6:18am · Like
Scott Lefebvre Easy, Brendan didn’t say “women who are bad writers (I assume that’s what he means because he called their books crappy)”.
You assume a lot, that’s the problem.
February 12 at 6:19am · Like · 1
Kit Power ‘Brendan said above that women who are bad writers (I assume that’s what he means because he called their books crappy) wear corsets (and I guess show cleavage?) to sell books. You are arguing this is NOT sexist.’ #readingcomprehensionfail I’ve made no comment at to the sexism, or otherwise, of Brendan’s statement. I do note in passing that Brendan Philips opinion has no baring or reflection on Scott Lefebvre‘s opinion, what with them being separate autonomous people. I assume.
February 12 at 6:20am · Like · 1
George C. Cotronis I think the echo chamber you have here is actively harming you and making you think your ideas are valid. I’m not a woman and I probably don’t care if women are treated fairly. Empathy only extends that much. But I don’t mind Women in Horror month, or if the logo looks like a vagina. You should really consider why it bothers you so much that you’ve posted about it twice in a week. Why do you care?
February 12 at 6:20am · Like · 3
Brendan Philips Where even the most self respecting will don their tightest fitting garments (some where they have no business at all) to try to Cortes you into buying their homemade Frankenstein do dad / their self published what have you / their Crowd funded this and that, all while donning the sexiest female attire befitting thief chosen horror subculture genre provides them … I’m not speaking in generalities , this is straight from my own eyes while manning a booth for over a dozen shows in two seasons
February 12 at 6:22am · Like · 1
George C. Cotronis Keep moving the goalposts I guess. I argue with Brendan and then I’m told that this has nothing to do with Scott. So fucking what, I wasn’t talking to Scott at the time. Why did my reading comprehension fail? What does ”horror themed thimble cover” fucking mean anyway? Maybe if you made any sense I could argue with you.
February 12 at 6:23am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Woahwoahwoah.
You get housed, make crazy talk and think you can just push reset and restate your initial query like none of the last three hours happened?
Have you decided to finally play nice and stop paraphrasing statements and insulting people?
If so… wait for it…
February 12 at 6:23am · Like
Scott Lefebvre GOLD STAR!
February 12 at 6:23am · Like
George C. Cotronis I dig your smug style antics, but it’s only funny if you do it once. Repetition kills comedy. You should know better.
February 12 at 6:23am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : “horror themed thimble cover” means exactly that.
It’s a cover for a thimble that has a design that is horror themed.
What’s so difficult to understand about that?
It’s plain English.
[ #ReadingComprehensionFail ]
February 12 at 6:25am · Like
Brendan Philips I’m trying to see where I was sexist … That was not my intent. I was being observational . It’s been a long night
February 12 at 6:25am · Like
George C. Cotronis How did I get housed? Kit and Brendan are spouting nonsense and patting themselves in the back, meanwhile no one else has any idea what the fuck they’re talking about, except ”we really want to support Scott on this one, some guy we don’t know called him sexist, call the Scott brigade we got a cheerleader emergency.”
February 12 at 6:25am · Like · 3
George C. Cotronis Hashtags don’t work on facebook you god damn moron.
February 12 at 6:25am · Like · 2
Kit Power George C. – I can see how, if one self identifies as a feminist, one might find the resemblance of the ‘women in horror month’ logo to an engorged vagina potentially problematic and worthy of discussion. If you disagree, that’s fine, but you’ve sure dived down a lot of rhetorical rabbit holes on the way.
February 12 at 6:25am · Like
George C. Cotronis Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. I’m not sure if Scott being outraged about it is because he’s such a hardcore feminist though.
February 12 at 6:27am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Yes, exactly that. GOLD STAR!
February 12 at 6:27am · Like
Kit Power PS I don’t know Scott Lefebvre personally. I’m not defending him. I’m defending good argument and civil debate. Poorly.
February 12 at 6:27am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : “You don’t know me. You never will, son.”
February 12 at 6:27am · Like
George C. Cotronis What’s that quote from?
February 12 at 6:27am · Like
Brendan Philips Just fact checked … You’re misquoting me my man
February 12 at 6:28am · Like · 1
Kit Power I didn’t call anyone a ‘hardcore feminist’.
February 12 at 6:28am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : It’s from a rap song, because I’m a racist.
Remember when you tried to pull that card #fuckstick?
February 12 at 6:29am · Like
George C. Cotronis I don’t know man, do you have any black friends?
February 12 at 6:29am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : And hashtags DO work on Facebook, you god damn moron! #GodDamnMoron
February 12 at 6:30am · Like · 1
George C. Cotronis Only technically.
February 12 at 6:30am · Like
George C. Cotronis It’s a poor addition tbh.
February 12 at 6:30am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips I’ll simplify … In the convention culture , women most often will try to use female charms … To get you to BUY things … Their $20 horror themed thimble if you will. Even if that thimble is their hard work made solid in book form , a self made film … Whatever thing that gets them a spot to justify the $$$$ they spent on a booth so they could make some extra cash. That’s in no way sexist. It’s sales and marketing 101.
February 12 at 6:31am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : You’re adorable. Even when you’re wrong, you just can’t admit you’re wrong.
February 12 at 6:31am · Like
George C. Cotronis I was wrong.
February 12 at 6:31am · Like · 1
George C. Cotronis Now look who’s wrong!
February 12 at 6:31am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : *dies*
February 12 at 6:31am · Like
George C. Cotronis You don’t know me brah.
February 12 at 6:32am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : You get one too. *bows*
February 12 at 6:32am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : Now can we all kind of get along? That was a close one…
February 12 at 6:32am · Like
Brendan Philips I’m still unclear where I was poorly arguing …
February 12 at 6:33am · Like
Brendan Philips And kit was on point too … So there is that
February 12 at 6:34am · Like · 1
Kit Power PS – I’m also not sure Scott expressed ‘outrage’. But it appears we may be moving on here, so maybe I’ll stand down. Brendan Philips – injudicious absence of the word ‘some’ definitely caused me some problems with your statement. I assumed, correctly, that it’s late and you’re tired and it’s what you meant, and you did clarify.
February 12 at 6:34am · Like · 1
George C. Cotronis Nah. I don’t give a shit about what you think about women in horror, but I’m pissed off because I gave it to you straight and you didn’t appreciate it. Because I put in a couple of swear words you got on your high horse and tried to insult me with some weak jabs like we’re in the playground. Instead of always being defensive, take a couple of minutes and consider that you might be an asshole sometimes. Everyone is.
February 12 at 6:34am · Like
Kit Power Ninja’d agian… #speedtypingfail
February 12 at 6:35am · Like
Brendan Philips I was just misquoted as saying something about crappy women authors … When that never was said.
February 12 at 6:35am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Oh, dude, I made this for myself.
I seriously did.
February 12 at 6:35am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : All I was trying to say was that the logo that some people are using as a header for WIHM looks like a swollen vagina with a big clit and everyone lost their fucking minds!
February 12 at 6:37am · Like · 2
George C. Cotronis Your ideas about how sexism works are dumb and you phrase them poorly. This is my synopsis of my argument. It doesn’t matter if you’re a psychologist or been to 200 cons or you best friend is a woman. You can still be wrong (and you are, as far as I’m concerned).
February 12 at 6:39am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : Excellent. We agree to disagree.
Now piss off and stop wasting my time.
February 12 at 6:40am · Like · 1
Kit Power So… you swore at him, he swore back, but you were ‘giving it straight’ and he’s all ‘weak playground jabs’? I can’t emphasise enough how much a I don’t have a dog in this fight, but this argument is made of weaksause. And you only got to your ‘giving it straight’ position by assuming implications that may or may not have actually been there, and straight-up misrepresentation. And I’ve patted no-one on the back, except myself, in the privacy of my own home, for I am a narcissistic sociopath and that’s how I roll.
February 12 at 6:41am · Like · 2
George C. Cotronis I’ll stick around till I get blocked to be honest.
February 12 at 6:41am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : The Facebook blocking function is broken.
It could be a loooong winter.
February 12 at 6:42am · Like
George C. Cotronis Strap in.
February 12 at 6:42am · Like
Scott Lefebvre GOLD STAR!
February 12 at 6:42am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : “I’m not locked in here with you…”
February 12 at 6:43am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips You mentioned the ” Some ” point a few times … You’re more than likely right … But I’m just not sure where I missed it. I’ve seen granny’s in corsets trying to sell me bat shaped cookies … All because they thought it might appeal to people and granny would sell more bat cookies. Granny’s breast were 50 years past her prime and could have just as easily been sheathed in a more conservative garb and she would have probably sold just as many cookies if not more. This example can be made 1000 times over by anyone who has ever been to a Horror / fantasy / genre Convention. If it’s in their head that they can make an extra dollar they will do it, the most heavily scruples artist will go to some strange lengths to eat. That was my point
February 12 at 6:43am · Like · 2
Brendan Philips Please excuse the obvious auto corrects that might bear off my point
February 12 at 6:47am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : By the way, I didn’t tell Kit or Brendan to participate in this conversation, they just wandered in here by themselves.
Probably because vagina.
February 12 at 6:48am · Like · 3
Kit Power Given this will all disappear once the admins actually see the pic, and understanding that this isn’t a democratic process, I vote for not blocking Mr. Cotronis, because I still have this nagging suspicion that there’s a valid point to be had here somewhere… Brendan Philips – Your initial statement (paraphrased) was ‘Women use sex/sexyness/sexuality to sell things” and my feeling was that saying “SOME women…” etc was both more accurate and harder to misinterpret as a sexist generalisation. If you really wanted to be cute, you could even have gone for “I’ve often seen women at conversions…” which would have avoided all confusion, but then you did just that a few posts later. I’m a pedant, what can I say? Just trying to facilitate a clean flow of dialogue and minimise scope for misinterpretation. Because, you know, how hard could that be, on the internet? *violently headbutts wall*
February 12 at 6:49am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips By the way … If anyone would like to see some actual exploitation of women … Feel free to checkout my shameless self promoting plug for my photography Studio …
Www.facebook.com/DigitalInfamy
Digital Infamy Studios by Brendan Philips
Photography and Editing by Infamous Brendan Philips
Artist: 296 like this
February 12 at 6:49am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : Brendan Philips! Really?
Saying “Really” when something pisses you off
February 12 at 6:50am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips My man … I welcome the fun of it all , I enjoyed every second
February 12 at 6:50am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : Oh man! Did you see Sam Jackson do one of my “Really?” when someone confused him with Laurence Fishburne?
February 12 at 6:51am · Like · 3
Brendan Philips I did
February 12 at 6:52am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : Tell me you didn’t think of me when he said that like that. I dare you! I DOUBLE DARE YOU!
February 12 at 6:53am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips And as we just pushed the 200 mark … Your damn right I posted my work . I exploit women on the daily for financial gains. Who knows how far reaching the peeps on this thread extend … Haha.
Pity me gentlemen, I date a Sicilian feminist social worker who models by night.
I never get a chance to be heard unless it’s on my buddies threads on fb @ 6am
February 12 at 6:56am · Edited · Like · 2
Brendan Philips And no matter if I’m right … I’m forever wrong … Haha
Hope the world shines warmly on your faces. I’m tapping out of this one.
Cheers
February 12 at 6:58am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips Final thought
( ).( ) <————— anus
Hahahaha
February 12 at 7:00am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : *dies*
February 12 at 7:01am · Like
Kit Power “the most heavily scruples artist will go to some strange lengths to eat.” Tell me about it. I mean, I’m on fucking FaceBook. Using smileys and everything.
February 12 at 7:03am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : Really dude? Really?
Saying “Really” when something pisses you off
February 12 at 7:03am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Whatever, I walk.
This has burned way too much of my time.
Talk amongst yourselves.
February 12 at 7:05am · Like
Brendan Philips Wait … Were not supposed to stick out cranks in the red vampire chicks mouth ?
I thought that was the whole point.
Thanks for the world shattering revelation Niles Cranes Lumberjack Bearded twin.
February 12 at 7:06am · Like
Kit Power Thank you for your contribution.
February 12 at 7:07am · Like
Jason Lane Man, I just showed up. Did I miss anything?
February 12 at 7:18am · Like · 1
Sue TheRenegade Myhill This thread has made my lunchtime coffee far more entertaining. I love that it’s covered “what is sexism” and “what is feminism”, but I’m very concerned no one questions that this man see’s vaginas on all your faces. Where that leaves those of you with beards I don’t know.
February 12 at 7:22am · Unlike · 9
Scott Lefebvre : Exactly!
Believe it or not, Sue, I’m with you.
February 12 at 7:37am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Oh, and in the end… guess who blocked who?
Troll status = GOD MODE!
February 12 at 7:39am · Like · 3
Sue TheRenegade Myhill You have taken a screen shot. You have “Troll Pro” installed within your dark heart. Well done you.
February 12 at 7:40am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I seriously don’t like to start fights on the internet.
Honestly I don’t.
But I do love ending them.
February 12 at 7:58am · Like · 1
Selene MacLeod SUE WINS THE INTERNET!
February 12 at 8:55am · Like
Lee Arleth I love my new future roomie.
February 12 at 10:49am · Like
Caren Widner Hanten I personally, do not wear lipstick, as I prefer my lips look like an old, dried up, not at all aroused vagina… Wait, what? I’m going to buy a veil.
February 12 at 11:13am · Unlike · 7
April Hawks Scott, i have to say, late to the party as always, that though i own both a mouth and a vagina, i was not connecting the two…
February 12 at 11:23am · Like · 4
Caren Widner Hanten All joking aside, I wanted to weigh in as there really weren’t many other females who did so. I am also familiar with the theory that women’s red lips were a sign of sexual fertility and an indicator that they may be a good mate. However, this theory is generally used during Neanderthal times, when humans had very little going on in the way of intellect and operated almost solely on instinct. To say it holds true today, would be to say we haven’t evolved from that point. Where we are today (most of us anyway) is a far cry from our caveman ancestors. It is a huge stretch to even try to see a vagina in that set of vampire lips, even with them turned on their side and next to a very detailed vaginal diagram. They still look like what they are, vampire lips. Then again, I am not a Neanderthal. For the record, I do not buy into the phallic symbol arguments either. Stabbing is not representative of rape, or sexual penetration, or male dominance. It is representative of murder and brutality. Unless something is clearly shaped like a dick, it’s not a phallus. And a woman’s mouth is not just a vagina on her face.
February 12 at 11:37am · Unlike · 18
Renee Pickituppickituppickitup Hey! Good thing my block function isn’t malfunctioning! By which I mean– this is disgusting and you might rethink how much you “like women” and also consider that anything that follows “I like/love women” tends to be as offensive as the things that follow “I’m not a racist, but…”
February 12 at 12:07pm · Like · 13
Chantal Noordeloos Wait… hold on… (there are too many comments, can’t read them all) are you likening our lips to a vagina? It’s not like we can change the shape of our mouth’s you know. It’s like complaining that men with large noses are phallic, and then saying they can’t be a model for a male movement… It’s all a little bizarre if you ask me. The picture of the vagina doesn’t shock and offend me… but your vision and what you say kind of does. Stay classy? Because of a pair of blood covered lips? YOU see a vagina in it *I* don’t. So I suggest *YOU* should stay classy. You just insulted ever female who has a mouth by saying that if they wear lipstick, they have lips like a vagina. I really don’t know what to say to you, other than ‘grow up’.
February 12 at 1:57pm · Like · 16
Paul DeThroe Damn, I’m a guy and I have lips, didn’t know they were like a vagina. Who knew?
February 12 at 2:46pm · Like · 11
Chantal Noordeloos Apparently if you lick your lips it means ‘cum goes here’. I’ll make sure to bring tissues with me from now on. What if I’m in a restaurant and accidentally lick food from my lips. A random stranger might feel forced to ejaculate on my mouth… wouldn’t want that
February 12 at 2:56pm · Like · 9
Chantal Noordeloos Careful Paul having lips is an invitation for someone to maybe put their penis inside.
February 12 at 2:56pm · Like · 5
Graeme Reynolds I’m a little surprised that a psychologist didn’t see this sort of reaction coming, to be honest. Definitely the train-wreck thread of the week.
February 12 at 2:59pm · Like · 6
Paul DeThroe I’m breaking out the crazyglue right now, Chantal!
February 12 at 3:13pm · Like · 4
Chantal Noordeloos Perhaps we can be modest and cover up our mouths
February 12 at 3:13pm · Like · 4
Paul DeThroe I will grow my moustache over my lips. That explains ZZ Top! LOL
February 12 at 3:14pm · Like · 2
Chantal Noordeloos I don’t know… hair might remind men of ‘bush’. Would you risk it?
February 12 at 3:15pm · Like · 7
Paul DeThroe Darn it, I didn’t think of that!!!! Now I’m screwed. No. No. No I’m not…
February 12 at 3:15pm · Like · 4
Chantal Noordeloos lol
February 12 at 3:16pm · Like · 3
Chantal Noordeloos That’s nice Stephen. Why don’t you convince the rest of the world to do the same, and then we can get rid of ‘women in horror month’. You think that’s what women want? A month? Positive discrimination? You think that’s what we’re looking for? … lemme answer that for ya: No we don’t. We want to be equal. We want our work to be sold for it’s merit, it’s quality, and we don’t want to be judged on our gender… that’s what we want. But we’re not getting that. Fact is, it’s still hard for a woman in the horror market. We still get called out for ‘writing romance’ even when we don’t. So until that changes, we have silly little horror months, where we point out to the reading world: HEY!! We’re HERE!!! hidden between all those male writers that get recognition for the rest of the year… WE COUNT TOO! And we write more than paranormal romance. That’s what this month is for. And if you don’t like it: FIX THE PROBLEM AND STOP WHINING AT US! We have enough shit to deal with. (like posts like this one)
February 12 at 3:23pm · Like · 19
Chantal Noordeloos And stop saying “I love women”. If you loved women, you would be on our side, and you would be helping us. Not calling us scream queens and pointing fingers at the fact that we use our ‘sexuality to get ahead’. I’m seriously wondering if you ever met a woman outside of facebook when I read shit like that. Maybe you need to watch less porn and talk to some real life women.
February 12 at 3:25pm · Like · 12
Levi Everaerts I honestly think this “Women in Horror Month” is doing more bad than good. By having this month, you’re already seperating the women from the men. Let’s actually stand up for equality and not do that shit. Women in Horror Month is popular because it involves women. Horror isn’t popular just because it includes some men. That’s basically the point I want to make.
February 12 at 3:37pm · Like · 2
Levi Everaerts I personally never saw a problem with women using their sexuality to sell. How many girls are going to see action flicks because of the hot guys? I apologize in advance for mentioning it, but Twilight was BUILT on it. It goes both ways. There’s nothing wrong with attractive people using their sexuality to sell, regardless of gender. Is the stuff they sell actually good? That’s debatable, and in my opinion the only thing that counts. Just because Neve Campbell is attractive doesn’t mean that is the only thing she has going for it. And hey, if that’s the only reason people like them, so be it. Sure, it’s a damn shame, but it is what it is. It happens in porn all the time.
February 12 at 3:51pm · Unlike · 2
Chantal Noordeloos Stephen you just said that women tried to get ahead using their sexuality. Stop looking at porn and Jersey Shore for role models. And stop comparing shit that women do to porn. Porn is NOT real life. Some of us are actually trying to get by on talent… and you’ll be shocked to know that some of us are actually talented.
Levi… women don’t want to stand apart. The only reason why there is a female in horror month, is because a lot of female horror authors are trying to break away from the ‘paranormal romance stigma’. I would gladly not need a month like this… I really would. I would like it to be more natural, and I would like people to just treat females the same. Fact is: they don’t. Someone posted the question: would or have you read anything written by a female horror author… I think about 1/3rd of the people answered either “No I wouldn’t, or no I haven’t and not sure if I would”. Horror is a tough genre for us women. If you have a better idea how to fix it… please share! I really would like something more effective than 28 days of extreme spotlight.
And if you are thinking we’re now all swimming in money from all the cash it has made us… think again.
February 12 at 3:58pm · Like · 4
Levi Everaerts Chantal – So you’re agreeing with me. Cool.
February 12 at 4:02pm · Like
Stephen Biro And this is why adults can’t have intelligent conversations with angry people on the Internet.
February 12 at 4:02pm · Like · 3
Chantal Noordeloos Levi.. yes and no. Yes I agree the ‘there should be something better than WIHM’… no I don’t think we should ignore it.
February 12 at 4:06pm · Like
Chantal Noordeloos Stephen, if you are going to be an adult, please come up with some adult arguments. I can’t argue with random stupidity.
February 12 at 4:06pm · Like · 2
Paul DeThroe I don’t give a damn if women use sexuality to sell or not. If you got it flaunt it. Sex sells, even if it isn’t sex you’re selling. That being said, I know quite a few quality horror writers that are women. None of them that I know use sex as a selling point. Chantal Noordeloos, Paula Ashe, April M. Reign, Lori R. Lopez, just to name a few. These women will scare you so badly the last thing you will want is to think about is sex. Their art is well crafted and should sell itself. I don’t mind helping them. My dark fiction blog is full of writer interviews, men and women alike. But you know what, if they chose to use sex, I wouldn’t fault them. But the fact that they put their work up against everyone else and still don’t use sex impresses me to no end. And by the way, I wouldn’t want to offend them with judgmental attitudes like I’ve seen here. js
February 12 at 4:07pm · Unlike · 7
Chantal Noordeloos How does this have ANYTHING to do with women in horror? Can we please stop genre hopping here?
February 12 at 4:08pm · Like · 1
Stephen Biro I’ll give you that. LOL
February 12 at 4:09pm · Like
Stephen Biro Well… we have a problem. Sorry if I pissed you off Chantal… that was not my intention.
February 12 at 4:09pm · Like · 1
Jake Helman I once fought a woman like that.
February 12 at 4:14pm · Like · 2
Chantal Noordeloos Lol, okay… *feels a lot less angry*.
February 12 at 4:14pm · Like · 1
Chantal Noordeloos The thing is, at the risk of sounding like a crazy bra burner… we do actually come across a lot of misogyny in the genre world. And I’m sure it’s equally hard for men in the romance world, btw, not saying that’s good either. But if you don’t write love stories, it’s hard to find an audience or even be represented in the right way. I’ve heard female authors complain that their publishers turned their covers into ‘girly’ while their writing didn’t suit the theme. It’s the little things like that which makes it harder for us. And that is why there is a month like this. Where we remind the world: Don’t forget to read some women. A lot of people don’t read female authors, and they are missing out on so much
February 12 at 4:16pm · Like · 9
Chantal Noordeloos So posts like this one *points at the vagina mouth* and comments like yours, where you talk about women using their sexualities… they set us back. They put us back in that box we are fighting to get out of. Honestly… I just want to be recognized for my writing. Not for my boobs, not for my vagina mouth. Sex sells… yes, but that shouldn’t be in the authors, that should be part of the books. And even then… proper porn is a whole different genre. Don’t look at all women the way you see some famous women. Also… men use their sexuality to get ahead too… look how many crappy actors get parts because they have a nice chest. So it’s just the way of the world… but that should be separate from the real issue. Whether there is a kinky mouth image as a logo or a severed skull.. it shouldn’t matter. What should matter is the stories.
February 12 at 4:19pm · Like · 12
Stephen Biro Dammit! I walked into a minefield knowing I was going to… Jake is much smarter then me. LOL
February 12 at 4:21pm · Like · 2
Jake Helman Walk this way.
February 12 at 4:22pm · Like · 3
Stephen Biro I didn’t know all of that Chantal… That’s terrible. Well, if I can do anything to help, I will. Best of luck with your future writing and novels… I know I need it.
Best!
February 12 at 4:31pm · Like · 2
Barry R. Hunter I guess recommending the movie TEETH would not be cool either!
February 12 at 4:36pm · Like · 6
Brian Canali Why is it upside down?
February 12 at 5:40pm · Like · 4
Jim Mcleod It’s from an Australian textbook
February 12 at 5:53pm · Like · 7
Ray Cluley Women, jeez – you burn your bras then moan about the lack of support…
February 12 at 5:57pm · Like · 3
Hart Fisher Preach it brother! Preach it!
February 12 at 6:13pm · Like · 2
Suzi M Author God help me, I gazed upon Burning Babylon…. I’ve read most of the comments, I’ve looked at the pictures, and all I want to shout from the rooftops is ‘Rotate Counterclockwise 180 degrees!’ on the textbook image, and ‘Rotate counterclockwise 90 degrees!’ on the lips. I had a much more expansive response, but something tells me only a select few would actually read it.
February 12 at 8:04pm · Like · 5
Bryan Hall Does this mean that if a close up of an eye is used for marketing it’s really a picture of an asshole?
February 12 at 11:47pm · Like · 7
Suzi M Author Eyes are the windows to the soul, Bryan… and the colon.
February 12 at 11:47pm · Like · 5
Suzi M Author Finally figured out what this pic reminds me of… The Human Centipede: Victim View.
February 13 at 12:11am · Like · 4
Selene MacLeod BWAHAHAHA!
February 13 at 12:21am · Like · 2
Mark Sparkymarky Woods Can I just chip in here and say as a reader and a horror writer myself, one if my favourite authors is catt dahman and in the nineties was Nancy a Collins. Maybe I am in the minority but I love women writers in horror because I think they have talent, not because they are women. Hell, I’ve probably read a few books by black authors too.
I see why we need a month of women’s horror but it disturbs me that we need to make that distinction in this day age. All people are created equal, but apparently some people are still more equal than others. I don’t give a monkeys who writes a book so long a I enjoy it.
As to the whole vagina/ mouth thing- I’m staying well the fuck away from that argument. I’m a man, I’m not stoopid! Lol
I’d no sooner say ‘ yes love that dress does make you look fat!’
I do think though that the fact this post has so many responses indicates and probably proves that the author of this has gotten exactly what he wanted – attention! Lol
February 13 at 12:57am · Like · 5
Michael Fish Fisher What sucks to me about this post is not the rest of the drama but that they are using the lips from the True Blood poster a few years ago. I am sure it was properly licensed stock photography, but all I see when I see those lips is True Blood.
February 13 at 1:15am · Like · 3
Scotty Schrier I don’t care what anyone says, but I cannot read that without singing “Vagina Dentata” to the tune of Hakuna Matata.
And now, neither can you.
February 13 at 1:16am · Like · 5
Selene MacLeod Scotty, I already posted a YouTube video someone did of that. Scroll up and check it out! It’s pretty funny.
February 13 at 1:38am · Like · 2
Jim Mcleod What about gingers in horror month? Hell nobody wants to know about us
February 13 at 3:24am · Like · 1
Claire Riley Well Jim Mcleod, I’m a female horror writer and a red head so I’m screwed apparently! Better put on some lipstick!
February 13 at 6:20am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : http://www.amazon.com/The-Monstrous…/dp/0415052599
The Monstrous-Feminine: Film, Feminism, Psychoanalysis (Popular Fictions Series)
www.amazon.com
In almost all critical writings on the horror film, woman is conceptualised only…See More
February 13 at 12:40pm · Like · 1
Selene MacLeod http://www.amazon.com/Men…/dp/0691006202/ref=sr_1_1…
Men, Women, and Chain Saws: Gender in the Modern Horror Film
www.amazon.com
Do the pleasures of horror movies really begin and end in sadism? So the public …See More
February 13 at 5:16pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre http://lovecraftwork.blogspot.com/…/02/vagina-dentata.html
February 13 at 5:19pm · Like
Jerrod Balzer Oh, for fuck’s sake. They’re just using the True Blood lips, a show based on books written by a female author. They shouldn’t be ripping off HBO or whoever’s property it is, but it’s recognizable and gets their nonprofit message across easier.
The author of this post would have been far more constructive putting his hand down his pants rather than the keyboard to endulge in any fantasies over the picture.
February 14 at 5:58pm · Edited · Like · 3
April Hawks Ok. Here I am! You started off your post with “This one’s going to sting a little folks..” That does not, to me, sound like you are not planning on inciting drama.
February 15 at 11:44am · Like · 1
April Hawks This might take me a bit because there is A LOT to dig through
February 15 at 11:45am · Like
April Hawks also, this :”Stay classy ladies.” sounds condescending and rude.
February 15 at 11:48am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : That’s fair, take your time, I’m an insomniac and not liable to be able to get to sleep today between work shifts in addition to everything else I have to do.
February 15 at 11:50am · Like
April Hawks Your original post shows a vagina and you yourself say that you expect it to get pulled by FB, so again, you are expecting SOMETHING.
February 15 at 11:50am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : It does sounds condescending and rude.
If people had said that they felt the original comment was condescending and rude, I would have to respect their opinion.
But as you well know, that is most decidedly not what they said.
February 15 at 11:51am · Like · 1
April Hawks That is why I am here. You asked what I think
February 15 at 11:52am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : I know. And I respect your opinion.
February 15 at 11:52am · Like
April Hawks I happen to own BOTH a vagina AND a set of lips. I nwver would have connected the two in terms of women in horror month
February 15 at 11:53am · Like
April Hawks and that logo, WHICH is not the official logo, anyway.
February 15 at 11:53am · Like
April Hawks BUT I have to say several things about the whole conversation. The Gold star thing made you look like an ass.
February 15 at 11:54am · Like · 1
April Hawks It said to me that you had no viable argument or defense and instead you were just being condescending and rude…again.
February 15 at 11:55am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I also know that the post shows a vagina.
I expected it to be flagged because of the vagina, not the obvious, to me, vagina dentata comparison.
I like vaginas. I have no problem seeing them.
But I get that some people have to kind of brace themselves before seeing one. It’s the puritanical society we live in.
Where a woman’s nipple gets an image banned, but a man’s nipple is fine, and nursing mothers have to defend their rights to feed their children in public.
February 15 at 11:55am · Unlike · 1
Scott Lefebvre : One thing at a time please.
February 15 at 11:56am · Unlike · 1
Scott Lefebvre : I have to catch up.
February 15 at 11:56am · Unlike · 1
April Hawks Ok. Back to the picture then
February 15 at 11:57am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Not yet. Let me catch up.
Point. Counter-point.
February 15 at 11:57am · Like
April Hawks mmmkkaaay.
February 15 at 11:57am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I know that you said you have both a vagina and a set of lips and that you never would have connected the two in terms of Women In Horror Month.
But, let me ask you this.
Have you ever used your mouth in a heterosexual manner.
As in, to be direct, performed oral sex on a man.
February 15 at 11:59am · Like
April Hawks I have used my mouth in MANY ways, Scott. number one, I think that that is an innapropriate question and number two, I am not going to answer that.
February 15 at 12:00pm · Like · 1
April Hawks and there was no sexual connotation in my initial sentence of that response
February 15 at 12:00pm · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : The reason I ask, is that if the mouth is a vaginal surrogate in other situations, then it is not inconceivable that you can see the analogy as presented in accordance with the concept of the vagina dentata.
I’m not trying to sexualize the discussion on a personal level.
I’m not trying to attack you personally or be inappropriate, but, by definition the is going to a somewhat “inappropriate” conversation.
If you can’t handle speaking plainly about what we’re talking about then we’re not going to get anywhere with this.
It will just resort to you being angry about something that you think it is inappropriate to talk about.
February 15 at 12:04pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : JC, wait your turn.
February 15 at 12:04pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : In response to the “Gold Star” thing, George was taking turns engaging in the conversation and then trolling and insulting my acquaintances.
You can’t feed a troll, but you can wear them down.
February 15 at 12:07pm · Like
April Hawks You asked me personally. And I am not answering personally. Yes, mouths get used that way. BY BOTH GENDERS. By all orientations. They also get used for eating…nourishment (WHICH in the case of the mouth picture in question, is MY association)
February 15 at 12:07pm · Like
Lee Arleth *sigh* Same asylum, different lunatics.
February 15 at 12:07pm · Like
April Hawks looks like she just had lunch, to me
February 15 at 12:07pm · Like
April Hawks Lee, are you jumping in to call me a lunatic?
February 15 at 12:08pm · Like · 1
April Hawks I think I am being rational, here
February 15 at 12:08pm · Like
Lee Arleth If the strait jacket fits…
February 15 at 12:09pm · Like
April Hawks AND i was invited in to this conversation BY Scott
February 15 at 12:09pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Easy Lee Arleth.
We’re having a civil discussion.
February 15 at 12:09pm · Like · 1
April Hawks thank you scott
February 15 at 12:10pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : April was a friend of mine, and I think we’re trying to hash it out.
February 15 at 12:10pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Lee Arleth‘s just being protective.
I’ve had to deal with a lot of shit in the past couple of days.
Thank you, Lee, I appreciate the thought.
February 15 at 12:11pm · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : As I was saying…
Duly noted, April.
But you said that you didn’t make the association between a vagina and a mouth.
That’s why I asked you a personal question.
So, we agree that the mouth is sometimes used as a vaginal surrogate.
And, please don’t take this as condescending, but you are familiar with the concept of the vagina dentata, yes?
February 15 at 12:12pm · Edited · Like
Lee Arleth Just fucking around. It’s what I do.
February 15 at 12:12pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Listen girls… you’re BOTH pretty. *laughs*
February 15 at 12:13pm · Like · 1
Lee Arleth And yes, I have Scott Lefebvre‘s back. I love my new future roomie.
February 15 at 12:14pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : JC, you do realize that your initial statement was an ad hominem attack, yes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Ad hominem – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org
An ad hominem (Latin for “to the man” or “to the person”[1]), short for argument…See More
February 15 at 12:14pm · Like
April Hawks Scott, whether I am pretty or not has no basis in this conversation. but thank you anyway.
February 15 at 12:18pm · Like
April Hawks I am familiar with vagina dentata
February 15 at 12:18pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I know, I just use that to break up fights and was trying to keep it light.
February 15 at 12:19pm · Like · 1
April Hawks but it emphasizes the very thing that people are getting upset about.
February 15 at 12:19pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : So if you’re familiar with the concept of the vagina dentata, then why am I the worst person in the world as of late according to some people?
Or at least according to you.
February 15 at 12:19pm · Like
April Hawks I didnt say you are the worst person in the world
February 15 at 12:20pm · Like
April Hawks I said I disagreed with what you said and how you said it
February 15 at 12:20pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I know. I apologize for the misattribution.
But there’s a taste of what I’ve been dealing with for the past few days.
February 15 at 12:20pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : That aside, what did you disagree with that I said and how I said it?
February 15 at 12:21pm · Like
April Hawks but you have been giving as good as you are getting, Scott. Let’s be honest
February 15 at 12:21pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Have I? Howso?
And I would appreciate it if you also answered my question so we can stay on point, and I will do the same out of common courtesy.
February 15 at 12:22pm · Like
April Hawks As I said, I don’t think that a female mouth, lipstick or no, fangs or tongue or not is immediately comparable to a vagins
February 15 at 12:22pm · Like
April Hawks I refer to my mention of your use of the gold star and the mike drop pic
February 15 at 12:23pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I didn’t say that “a female mouth” is immediately comparable to a vagina.
I referred to it in our discussion now because you said that you didn’t make the association.
In general, I don’t see every female mouth as a vagina, which, has been attributed to me, often.
I said that this one, specifically, with the dark red lips and fang and blood did.
February 15 at 12:24pm · Like
April Hawks and I disagree with your interpretation of it. You are completely entitled to have an opinion.
February 15 at 12:25pm · Like
April Hawks But I, likewise, am entitled to think that I disagree with it
February 15 at 12:26pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Then we are in agreement, and I think that we agree to disagree.
So why are we not imaginary friends anymore?
February 15 at 12:26pm · Like
April Hawks lol. Hold on. I am not done yet
February 15 at 12:27pm · Like
April Hawks you have stated several times before that you disagree with WIHM in general. You also mentioned taking a female penname and writing rape revenge to get in on it.
February 15 at 12:29pm · Like
April Hawks The first part, I am really genuinely confused about .
February 15 at 12:29pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I will wait until you have finished your thread to reply.
February 15 at 12:30pm · Like
April Hawks The second part is pure sexist bullshit, generalizing a WHOLE gender to penning rape revenge for horror.
February 15 at 12:30pm · Like · 1
April Hawks you’re up
February 15 at 12:30pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I disagree with WIHM because it is self-promotional in tone.
I know that it is not universally self-promotional, but most of what I have seen has been self-promotional.
Not, “Hey, check out these awesome female authors.” but “It’s WIHM, and I’m a woman, so give me money.”
It doesn’t seem very altruistic.
Whereas the anthology that I suggested that Selene and I collaborate on would be completely gender blind and altruistic in that all proceeds would be intended to go to a shelter for domestic abuse or, if it raises enough proceeds, towards establishing a scholarship or grant for a woman author.
The problem with a thing being exclusionary based on gender is that it is sexist.
Inverting a sexist trend doesn’t balance it, it inverts it.
When women were not allowed to vote, that was sexist.
Allowing them to vote was egalitarian.
Allowing only women to vote and removing that right from men would be an inversion of that pre-existing sexism.
It’s bad logic to compare one thing to another but I am not the best logician.
If I may make another comparison, if a woman takes on a male pen-name to level the playing field, that is seen as a justifiable thing.
If a man takes on a female pen name to take advantage of a month that promotes female authors it’s sexist.
Stephen King used to write Harlequin novels to make money before he was famous.
So, now do you also hate Stephen King for using a female pen name to take advantage of what is traditionally considered a female dominated genre?
I also never said that women only write rape/revenge.
That is not even a paraphrasing, that is an inference.
I said that’s what I would do.
Your turn.
February 15 at 12:42pm · Like
Selene MacLeod Lots of men write erotica under female pen names.
February 15 at 12:44pm · Like
April Hawks I don’t hate people that find a way to deal with shitty cards (women in horror, men in romance) I hate that the cards are shitty.
February 15 at 12:45pm · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : I know.
February 15 at 12:45pm · Like
April Hawks BUT having said that, the cards ARE shitty
February 15 at 12:45pm · Like
April Hawks Scott, my inference was based on your wording. You said that you wanted to cash in on Women in Horror Month. And you said that you would write such and such under a female pen name. There are two things that I find offensive in that.
February 15 at 12:46pm · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : Continue. I will wait till you have rested.
February 15 at 12:47pm · Like
April Hawks number 1. The fact that we HAVE to have a WIHM means that based on your gender, you are already more likely to sell, every day of the year.
February 15 at 12:47pm · Like
April Hawks So WHY IN THE HELL would you talk about taking ADVANTAGE of something that is set up in a SMALL way to level the playing field?
February 15 at 12:48pm · Like
April Hawks that is n’t funny to me.
February 15 at 12:48pm · Like
April Hawks Second, your wording was such that my inference was not illogical or random or way off base. it was worded as such that that is a HIGHLY logical inference.
February 15 at 12:50pm · Like
April Hawks It was just as insulting as though you had said that you wanted to figure out how to work a unicorn into your story.
February 15 at 12:51pm · Like
April Hawks the way that you word things makes it look like you are waiting to piss someone off and then asking why they are. In my opinion
February 15 at 12:52pm · Like · 1
Selene MacLeod There’s a well known anecdote about Robertson Davies, who had a big long white beard. One day someone at a lecture asked him about the phallic significance of the beard. He ignored the question. A few minutes later, though, he responded by asking the asker if he asked other men why, by shaving, they castrated themselves every day…
February 15 at 12:54pm · Unlike · 1
April Hawks Your posts have the same tone as blah blah blah but I have (insert token minority) friends. so its okay that I say this
February 15 at 12:57pm · Like · 2
April Hawks your turn
February 15 at 12:58pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I’ve been composing in another window.
Give me a couple minutes.
February 15 at 12:59pm · Unlike · 1
Selene MacLeod It also feels like you’re trying to get us to agree with you when you say a woman’s mouth is the same thing as a vagina. And that crude sexual metaphors are somehow a mark of your breeding and intellect because you read a couple of books and had one feminist teacher. Your comments come across like “Huh-huh VAGINA!”
February 15 at 1:00pm · Unlike · 3
April Hawks THANK YOU
February 15 at 1:00pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I’ll add that to the reply.
February 15 at 1:01pm · Like
Chris Ralski Amesquita wow
February 15 at 1:43pm · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre :
You said that “hate that the cards are shitty.”
I also hate it when the cards are shitty.
But having a month-long event that excludes one gender in favor of the other is not a good example of the egalitarian spirit.
If it’s any consolation, the submissions for Till Death Do Us Part, an anthology that I thought you were planning on contributing to until recent events, have been about equally split in gender.
But, I hadn’t noticed, until this furor, because I don’t see authors as male or female.
I value their contributions equally, and there are some that only provided their first and middle initials and I don’t know what gender they are and I don’t care.
I don’t judge someone’s writing based on their gender, I base their writing based on their writing.
To address your points:
Number 1:
Some women sell more books than some men.
Some men sell more books than some women.
Do all men sell more books than all women?
No. I don’t sell more books than Anne Rice.
Do men, as a whole, sell more horror books than women? Yes.
Do women sell more romance books than men? Yes.
I would be just as equally displeased with a “Men In Romance Month” and I can only imagine the feminist backlash that would cause.
Does this mean that there is a gender bias in horror and romance? Yes.
But you don’t hear about the gender bias in romance against men.
It’s reflective of the market.
You can’t make people buy what they don’t want to buy.
Are customers more likely to buy a horror book written by a man and a romance novel written by a woman?
The market information seems to indicate that.
Now, what does all of that have to do with the original comparison between the unofficial logo for WIHM and the vagina dentata?
Nothing in my original comment suggests a dialogue about the gender bias in horror.
I said, “As long as they do the same amount and quality of work I believe they should receive the same amount of pay and vice versa.” which I believe is quite egalitarian.
The conversation about gender bias in horror was injected in the comments section.
Number Second:
An inference by any other name is still an inference, April.
What did I say?
I said, and I am quoting your paraphrasing, which I feel is just in the interest of saving time, rather than finding my original comment, “You also mentioned taking a female penname and writing rape revenge to get in on it.”
Then, what did you say that I mean by what I said?
“generalizing a WHOLE gender to penning rape revenge for horror.”
That’s what you wrote, not what I wrote.
What I meant by what I said was what I said.
Your inference is your projection.
“It was just as insulting as though you had said that you wanted to figure out how to work a unicorn into your story.”
I also did not say that. You said that.
February 15 at 2:00pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre This is my primary problem with this whole thing.
It’s not what I said, but what has been said on my behalf that is truly horrifying to me.
I posted an example of what I saw as a vagina dentata and people inferred that I said some of the vilest rape culture stuff that I have seen in years and I am honestly and truly offended.
And I never said any of it.
People said things like, again, a paraphrase in the interest of expediency, “every woman’s mouth is a vagina”, “that’s all a woman’s mouth is good for”, “I guess every woman is asking for it.”, and a much wider variety of truly offensive rape culture stuff that I find truly offensive and disturbing, and those were the people that were attacking me in the name of defending women.
This is where their minds go when they see a picture of what I saw as a vagina dentata next to a textbook diagram of a vagina.
I have been in relationships with women that have been the victims of physical and sexual abuse and I don’t find that funny in the least.
I would have and have never said anything like the rape culture phraseology that was used by self-proclaimed defenders of women.
You said, “the way that you word things makes it look like you are waiting to piss someone off and then asking why they are. In my opinion”
But you don’t see how you’re using your opinion as a premise to defend your position which is a logical fallacy.
What you said means exactly what you said, but it seems to me that you want your opinion to be entered as a fact.
So, if I allow that, then it becomes a fact that “the way that (I) word things makes it look like (I am) waiting to piss someone off and then asking why they are.”
As I said, that wasn’t entirely my intention.
I figured that the comparison of the unofficial logo for Women In Horror Month to the concept of the vagina dentata would be something that some people would disagree with, but my question, as stated was, “do you seriously think that a sideways vagina dentata with a huge clitoris is a great logo for your feminist horror movement?”
If, as many people have stated, they don’t agree that it is a fair comparison to a vagina dentata, then fine, we can agree to disagree.
But that’s not what the conversation has become.
Instead, by projected attribution I am becoming the focus of all of the available wrath for the gender bias in horror and rape culture, and none of the rape culture stuff was anything I ever said, but was rather inferred/projected by others which is what truly disturbs me.
Also, for the most part, aside from this conversation, for the most part, the comments have been personal attacks (see also: ad hominem) rather than rational discussion.
So instead of sparking a rational discussion of gender bias, which I was actually hoping to do, I’ve been called pretty much everything awful imaginable by people that don’t really know me.
Did you know that Bret Easton Ellis received death threats from the National Organization for Women because of American Psycho?
This is what the internet is.
It is, again, for the most part, not a place for rational discussion of potentially controversial issues.
I was truly surprised at how many authors were suggesting that I be censored and not allowed to express my opinion.
Congratulations, you wonderful open-minded gracious, pious individuals.
You’re now on the same side of the people that burned witches, burned crosses on people’s lawns, and martyred Galileo for saying that the earth was not the center of the universe and any other person that has engaged in prejudice, persecution, and censorship.
I hope you’re proud of yourself.
You don’t know me. You said things about me personally. That is prejudice.
I expressed an opinion that you do not agree with.
That does not make me a bad person, and, stop and think about it, this is cyber-bullying, pure and simple.
People I don’t know coming to my Facebook page, looking for something that they think will offend them, and when they are offended, insulting me although they don’t know me.
What if I killed myself because of all of the awful things that people had been saying about me?
I won’t because I know that they’re just expressing their anger the only way that they know how and those people don’t know me as a person, just as an opinion.
But what if I did?
Would there be a candle-light vigil?
Would you share the news on your Facebook wall and say it almost made you cry?
You say, “Your posts have the same tone as blah blah blah but I have (insert token minority) friends. so its okay that I say this”
Again, the comparison to racism, which is the first step towards Godwin’s Law.
Next I will be compared to Hitler.
I am not a racist, and I do not appreciate and will not allow the comparison so I would appreciate it if you would refrain from that comparison.
Because if you say that I am a racist, and I allow that, then it becomes a “fact” in your argument.
I’m having enough trouble with being called a sexist for the time being.
February 15 at 2:00pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre Selene:
You said, “It also feels like you’re trying to get us to agree with you when you say a woman’s mouth is the same thing as a vagina. And that crude sexual metaphors are somehow a mark of your breeding and intellect because you read a couple of books and had one feminist teacher. Your comments come across like “Huh-huh VAGINA!”
Allow me to refute this by saying that I didn’t say that and you are paraphrasing me and if I allow that paraphrasing, then it becomes a “fact”.
Please use what I actually wrote, because what you wrote was, if I may deconstruct it…
“It also feels like you’re trying to get us to agree with you when you say a woman’s mouth is the same thing as a vagina”
Not every woman’s mouth. This picture of a vampire’s mouth, specifically reminded me of the vagina dentata theory.
“And that crude sexual metaphors are somehow a mark of your breeding and intellect because you read a couple of books and had one feminist teacher.”
It’s not a crude sexual metaphor, it’s actually a part of feminist film theory.
If I’m crude, then Carol J. Clover, author of “Men, Women, and Chain Saws: Gender in the Modern Horror Film” and Barbara Creed, author of “The Monstrous-Feminine: Film, Feminism, Psychoanalysis” are also crude, but, I remind you that both are female authors and probably would not be subjected to the same kind of rape culture attribution and ad hominem attacks that I have been subjected to. Remember the cover of Barbara Creed’s book?
You said I “read a couple books”.
Actually, I took an entire semester of film study focusing exclusively on Horror Film Theory and have read a fair amount of books on a wide variety of subjects, but in response to the ad hominem attacks, and I encourage you to look up the term so that you will know the definition so you can avoid it in the future, I have had to defend the statements that have been made about my person rather than the issue, as, you will note, your statement is.
You don’t address the argument, you suggest, and rather condescendingly, I might add, that “read a couple of books and had one feminist teacher.” That’s not true, but that’s what you said.
I’m sure you didn’t mean to lie, but, you did. Because what you said was not true.
Are you mean-spirited? Are you trying to hurt my feelings? Are you a liar?
I don’t know about the middle one, but I’m pretty sure the first and last don’t apply.
You said, “Your comments come across like “Huh-huh VAGINA!”
That is your interpretation and not something I said, again an attribution.
If I accept it, it becomes a fact.
I didn’t say that. You said that.
Do the comments of Carol J. Clover, author of “Men, Women, and Chain Saws: Gender in the Modern Horror Film” and Barbara Creed, author of “The Monstrous-Feminine: Film, Feminism, Psychoanalysis” come across like “Huh-huh VAGINA!”?
Well do they?
If so, then we’ll have to agree to disagree on the matter.
I’d like to think that our agreeing to disagree does not mean that we have an irreconcilable difference.
February 15 at 2:00pm · Like
April Hawks ok. fair enough. However, this whole post is based on your inference of the lips.
February 15 at 2:05pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : A comparison of a set of blood red lips with fangs and a tongue poking out of it to a vagina dentata. Yes, I never denied that.
But what about all of the personal attacks, villification, the rape culture comments that other have injected into the conversation?
And, most importantly to me, as a person, why did you defriend me?
February 15 at 2:07pm · Like
April Hawks You are correct. One month does not make it equal. The thing IS that this month is designed to counter the assumption that horror is for men. This month does NOT say “Men suck. Don’t read their work.” It says. “hi. yeah. We are here too.”
February 15 at 2:08pm · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : You didn’t answer my questions.
What about all of the personal attacks, villification, the rape culture comments that others have injected into the conversation?
And, most importantly to me, as a person, why did you defriend me?
February 15 at 2:09pm · Edited · Like
April Hawks I was writing the above comment as you were posting them
February 15 at 2:09pm · Like · 1
April Hawks yours
February 15 at 2:09pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre My apologies.
I concede the thread to you.
February 15 at 2:10pm · Like
April Hawks I can’t speak to what others have posted about you. I am not in their heads. I am discussing this with you, now, in a civil discussion.
February 15 at 2:11pm · Like
April Hawks Names were called all around. I saw that and I stayed away from it.
February 15 at 2:11pm · Like
April Hawks Yes, I unfriended you. I did not block you.
February 15 at 2:12pm · Like
April Hawks But regardless of what your intention was/is, this has blown up in a BIG way
February 15 at 2:12pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : That, is impossible to deny.
February 15 at 2:13pm · Like
April Hawks and definitely not in a positive light for you by any stretch of the imagination
February 15 at 2:13pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Continue… or do you concede the thread?
February 15 at 2:15pm · Like
April Hawks continuing. just composing
February 15 at 2:16pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Understood.
February 15 at 2:16pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : By the way, just so you know, I may save all of this and write a book about it.
February 15 at 2:21pm · Like
Selene MacLeod The difference between you and Carol Clover is that she took the time to carefully construct her argument using examples and references. You threw a picture up and some comments that said “Hey, VAGINA!” Anyone who’s taken basic communication theory knows that there are several parts to communication: The message, the medium, and the reception. The picture at the left is full of innuendo (“Now that you mention it, I did recognize something…”) Nudge nudge wink wink. You drop a match on an inflammatory subject and then expect it NOT to blow up?
February 15 at 2:24pm · Unlike · 1
Scott Lefebvre : Again, attribution.
I didn’t prove that the earth orbits the sun.
I thought everyone accepted that.
I didn’t come up with the theory of the vagina dentata, I just figured that most people knew about it, at least people that are into horror.
My comments did not say “Hey, VAGINA!”
Please, use what I actually said and refrain from paraphrasing.
I have studied communication theory.
I knew what I was doing.
If a comparison is innuendo, then, I agree with you, although that’s a slippery slope semantically speaking.
“Nudge nudge wink wink.” = attribution.
And, actually, yeah, as I’ve said, I didn’t expect it to blow up.
Stimulate some discussion, sort of like the one we’re having now?
I hoped so.
The personal attacks, villification, the rape culture comments that others have injected into the conversation?
Not so much.
February 15 at 2:31pm · Like
Selene MacLeod And right there is where you went wrong. You reduced women, particularly women horror writers, to one body part. And then told us WE weren’t being “classy” by using this symbol (which isn’t even the official symbol).
February 15 at 2:33pm · Unlike · 1
Selene MacLeod I’m pointing out how these things have come across, regardless of your intent.
February 15 at 2:33pm · Like
April Hawks I have composed this; and I am not done yet.
February 15 at 2:35pm · Like
April Hawks Ok. This conversation happened on this thread
• Kody Boye re: I think women wear red lipstick because they think it’s pretty.
February 12 at 3:40am • Like • 10
•
Scott Lefebvre : Yes, but also, swollen red vaginal lips.
February 12 at 3:41am • Like • 1
•
Kody Boye I would hope that you’re not being serious.
February 12 at 3:44am • Like • 2
•
Scott Lefebvre : Are you kidding me?
Don’t you know anything about secondary sex signs?
I’m not trying to condescend but, yes, I am dead serious.
Later, you call Kody a Chump, which, I believe is actually the FIRST name called in the thread.
ALSO, you called George a Cunt and he had not called you any names.
February 15 at 2:35pm · Like
April Hawks so that is where the name calling came from.
February 15 at 2:35pm · Like
April Hawks No matter HOW much you read, no matter HOW much you study, until you are no longer a white male, you have no basis for critiquing WIHM.
February 15 at 2:36pm · Like
April Hawks NOR can you make generalizations as to why women paint their lips. I do it because, as Kody mentioned, it makes me feel pretty.
February 15 at 2:37pm · Like
April Hawks whatever the basis was LONG LONG LONG ago, things change.
February 15 at 2:37pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Selene, I didn’t reduce women horror writers to one body part.
That, again, is attribution.
You, by misattributing what I said by suggesting that your interpretation is what I actually said, are not being truthful.
I don’t think you’re a liar.
But you are coming across as one, regardless of your intent.
I also never said it was the official symbol.
I have conceded that point.
February 15 at 2:38pm · Edited · Like
April Hawks you are being condescending again, btw, in your comments about the semantics about what was actually said vs interpretation.
February 15 at 2:38pm · Like
April Hawks and it seems that instead of refuting the points that we make with facts, you are reverting to analasys of what we said and our inference or interpretation of what you said. So I jguess I will stick with asking point blank questions
February 15 at 2:40pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I did call Kody a “chump”.
And I did call George a “cunt”.
I also call people “dicks” and “assholes”.
I have never said that anyone was a racist or was “asking for it” or had a small penis, or any of the other personal attacks that I’ve had to deal with.
February 15 at 2:41pm · Like
Selene MacLeod Exactly. Thank you, April. I’m pointing out how the things that you said in your post have been interpreted by everyone. The entire tone of your post and the discussion that followed was sarcastic and vulgar, and any point of intellectual debate was lost. “Stay classy, ladies” will ALWAYS be read as “Women, stop acting like whores if you want to be taken seriously by me and my frat buddies, but so what if you do because we’re too busy looking at your tits.”
February 15 at 2:41pm · Unlike · 1
April Hawks so what you are saying is that they deserved it but you didn’t?
February 15 at 2:41pm · Like
Selene MacLeod And this, by the way, is the reason I don’t allow name calling on my wall.
February 15 at 2:41pm · Unlike · 2
Scott Lefebvre : April, just because I refute you doesn’t mean I’m being condescending.
I assure you that is not my intention.
If it was, I’d just call you both something sexist and be everything that people say I am.
I’m pointing out the fallacies in your arguments.
It’s not condescension. It’s refutation.
I never said you were stupid or below me.
I said that you have been paraphrasing and misattributing and projecting your opinions as my intent and I stand by that statement, because you have been doing that.
February 15 at 2:43pm · Like
April Hawks As long as they do the same amount and quality of work I believe they should receive the same amount of pay and vice versa.
February 15 at 2:44pm · Like
April Hawks This statemnet is loaded, and I will tell you why:
February 15 at 2:44pm · Like
April Hawks It consists of a presupposition that this is not typically the case.
February 15 at 2:45pm · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : Which is why I said, “As long as…” defining the term.
February 15 at 2:45pm · Like
April Hawks that is where the loading is
February 15 at 2:46pm · Like
April Hawks that is the pressuopsition that that would not be the case
February 15 at 2:46pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : For example, when I was working on a locked adolescent ward and I was required to perform more physical restraints than my female co-workers I feel that I should have received a higher rate of pay.
That sword has two edges.
February 15 at 2:46pm · Like
April Hawks It also presupposes that male slackers are not paid more for slacking than their female counterparts
February 15 at 2:47pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : As I said, “As long as they do the same amount and quality of work I believe they should receive the same amount of pay and vice versa.”
February 15 at 2:48pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I am arguing for equality.
You are claiming there is a gender bias.
There is a gender bias, but it doesn’t always work against women.
You don’t own the exclusive right to claiming sexual prejudice.
February 15 at 2:50pm · Edited · Like
April Hawks Again. It is the wording
February 15 at 2:50pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : No. It’s your interpretation.
The words mean exactly what they mean.
February 15 at 2:50pm · Like
April Hawks Scott, more often than not, it REALLY does work against women
February 15 at 2:50pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Oh really?
I don’t mind reframing the argument.
Would you like to?
February 15 at 2:51pm · Like
April Hawks I am trying to tell you WHY there was a blow up!
February 15 at 2:51pm · Like
April Hawks I am not the only person that interpreted your wording the way I have
February 15 at 2:51pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I know why there was a blow up.
That’s not what you said though.
You said, “Scott, more often than not, it REALLY does work against women.”
February 15 at 2:51pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Oh, so was I “asking for it”?
February 15 at 2:52pm · Like
April Hawks I have been telling you all along my interpretations of what I have seen.
February 15 at 2:53pm · Like
April Hawks and you have said that you dont undwrstand why it pissed people off
February 15 at 2:54pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I know, but that’s the problem, April.
I respect you as a person and respect your opinion, but your opinion is just that, your opinion.
But when people start to say that their opinion is your intention and then attack you based on their opinions of your intentions, that’s how women were burned as witches.
February 15 at 2:55pm · Edited · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Your opinion is not what I said.
February 15 at 2:56pm · Like
April Hawks this is not a witch hunt, Scott
February 15 at 2:56pm · Like
April Hawks not even comparable
February 15 at 2:56pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : You suggested I was a racist by comparison.
February 15 at 2:57pm · Like
April Hawks when?
February 15 at 2:57pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre “You say, “Your posts have the same tone as blah blah blah but I have (insert token minority) friends. so its okay that I say this”
Again, the comparison to racism, which is the first step towards Godwin’s Law.
Next I will be compared to Hitler.
I am not a racist, and I do not appreciate and will not allow the comparison so I would appreciate it if you would refrain from that comparison.
Because if you say that I am a racist, and I allow that, then it becomes a “fact” in your argument.
I’m having enough trouble with being called a sexist for the time being.”
February 15 at 2:58pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Selene suggested I was crude and uneducated.
February 15 at 2:59pm · Like
April Hawks I said token minority. you inferrred that I meant a race minority
February 15 at 2:59pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : That is what happens when you paraphrase what someone actually said into what you think they meant.
February 15 at 2:59pm · Like
April Hawks so you dont like it when I do it but its ok for you to do?
February 15 at 3:00pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Fine then, yes, I did make that assumption.
Because I have friends in many endangered species and they are certainly in the minority.
What did you mean then?
That I am a homophobe?
Say what you meant.
Or may I ask for clarification, which minority were you referring to, since, statistically speaking, women as a gender are in the majority.
Your move, Hawks.
February 15 at 3:01pm · Like
April Hawks It was a vague example to illustrate a point.
February 15 at 3:02pm · Like
April Hawks as to how your posts came across to me
February 15 at 3:02pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Then make it less vague.
I ask, again, which minority were you referring to, since, statistically speaking, women as a gender are in the majority?
February 15 at 3:02pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : At least when I am called out for misattribution, I retract and ask for clarification. You and Selene just dodge.
February 15 at 3:04pm · Like
April Hawks Less Vague: You are saying you understand what you are talking about because you took a class from a lesbian friend and that it was full of lesbians
February 15 at 3:04pm · Like
April Hawks I am NOT DODGING
February 15 at 3:04pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : You are, and, also, I never said that the class was full of lesbians.
Please admit that you misattributed that and restate your premise.
February 15 at 3:05pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : And, if you’re sticking with your preceding statement, you are suggesting that I am a homophobe, which I also do not appreciate.
February 15 at 3:06pm · Like
April Hawks I actually usually agree with feminists. My creative writing teacher in college was a lesbian that also taught women studies classes and we got along so well I took both of her Women’s Studies classes. That was an interesting experience. I really fucked up the chi of the class because I was the only man in the class, so whenever they started to get hyped up on stereotyping the male gender I was able to say, “Hey, you do know that I’m sitting right here.” It was kind of fun to be outnumbered and have to defend myself as being guilty for being born with a penis and being heterosexual for a whole year. Toughened me up.
February 15 at 3:06pm · Like
April Hawks you are sright you didnty say all lesbians
February 15 at 3:07pm · Like
April Hawks And I didnt say homophiobe. I said you felt qualified to talk about women in general because of it
February 15 at 3:07pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : So you presumed that I meant that the class was full of lesbians?
It was mostly women, and I was most decidedly the “minority” in that example.
So, which minority were you referring to, since, statistically speaking, women as a gender are in the majority?
February 15 at 3:08pm · Like
April Hawks I misread it and corrected myseldf above
February 15 at 3:08pm · Like
April Hawks women in HORROR are a minority.
February 15 at 3:09pm · Like
April Hawks which is, I believe what this was about
February 15 at 3:09pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Is that what you meant?
You were comparing women in horror with women in horror?
Or did you really mean some other kind of “minority”.
Your words, not mine.
February 15 at 3:10pm · Like
April Hawks Scott, I am telling you what I got from what you wrote and instead of taking it under advisement you are arguing about why you are right. I was trying to help clarify
February 15 at 3:10pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I am informing you that I think that you were suggesting that I was a racist and I am asking for clarification and you are dancing backwards.
February 15 at 3:11pm · Like
April Hawks your posts and comments are condescending
February 15 at 3:12pm · Like
April Hawks I am not dancing backwards
February 15 at 3:12pm · Like
April Hawks you are free to interpret what I say.
February 15 at 3:12pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : You’re avoiding the question.
February 15 at 3:12pm · Like
April Hawks I have not called you sexist, racist, or any other ists
February 15 at 3:13pm · Like
April Hawks nor have I implied racism
February 15 at 3:14pm · Like
April Hawks or homophobia
February 15 at 3:14pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I’m not trying to interpret what you said, I am asking for clarification.
You said…
“You say, “Your posts have the same tone as blah blah blah but I have (insert token minority) friends. so its okay that I say this”
Which minority were you referring to?
February 15 at 3:14pm · Like
April Hawks I said it has the SAME TONE
February 15 at 3:15pm · Like
April Hawks in that it is condescending bullshit with the added pat on the head of “but I like women so it is ok”
February 15 at 3:16pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : So you’re not saying that I’m a sexist, racist, or homophobe.
You’re saying that I was using the same tone, in a sexist context that a racist or a homophobe would use?
But not suggesting I am racist or homophobic.
February 15 at 3:17pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I am asking for clarification which you will not address.
February 15 at 3:17pm · Like
April Hawks I just clarified it!
February 15 at 3:18pm · Like
April Hawks In fact, I spelled it out!
February 15 at 3:19pm · Like
April Hawks In the social sciences, the term “minority” is used to refer to categories of persons who hold few positions of social power
February 15 at 3:20pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : No.
You reframed the question to suit your needs.
You said…
“I said it has the SAME TONE… in that it is condescending bullshit with the added pat on the head of “but I like women so it is ok”
I asked and you will not answer…
“You say, “Your posts have the same tone as blah blah blah but I have (insert token minority) friends. so its okay that I say this”
Which minority were you referring to?
May I ask that you answer the question like this?
“The minority that I was referring to in my comparative example was _____.”
February 15 at 3:20pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Such as whom?
February 15 at 3:21pm · Like
April Hawks women
February 15 at 3:21pm · Like
April Hawks minority is not about population percentages, Scott
February 15 at 3:22pm · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : You can’t compare a thing to itself.
February 15 at 3:22pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : That’s not what I asked.
Answer the question.
February 15 at 3:22pm · Like
April Hawks WHAT?
February 15 at 3:22pm · Like
April Hawks The minority I was referring to in my example was women
February 15 at 3:22pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : No.
The example you were using was “my posts” as in…
“Your posts have the same tone as blah blah blah but I have (insert token minority) friends. so its okay that I say this”
If my posts have a tone that is insulting to women then what are you comparing my posts to? Other posts that also use women as an example?
February 15 at 3:24pm · Like
April Hawks THAT IS NOT THE POINT.
February 15 at 3:25pm · Like
April Hawks I am not dancing, it is irrelevant
February 15 at 3:26pm · Like
April Hawks insert whatever minority you want. It does not mean that I am saying you are whatever ist
February 15 at 3:26pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : It is.
I am asking you a direct question.
It’s not irrelevant.
You just refuse to answer it because you don’t want to have to admit that you compared me to some other sort of discrimination because you know that I will accuse you of that discrimination by association.
It’s not beside the point, it IS the point.
I’m not going to “insert whatever minority you want”.
I want you to tell me which minority you meant.
If it can’t be women and isn’t about race or sexuality, then what is it?
February 15 at 3:29pm · Like
April Hawks using a comparison dies not mean that I attribute the same characteristics
February 15 at 3:30pm · Like
April Hawks If I compare an apple to an orange that does not all of a sudden mean that the apple IS an orange
February 15 at 3:30pm · Like
April Hawks they both grow on trees that doesnt mean that in every aspect they are the same
February 15 at 3:31pm · Like
April Hawks or peaches, or cherries…
February 15 at 3:31pm · Like
April Hawks you are being condescending LIKE racists and homophobes…but about women. That does not mean you are racist or homophobic
February 15 at 3:32pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Actually, yes, that is exactly what it means.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/comparison
You were proposing a similarity in that you used “like” instead of “different from”.
And you are STILL dodging the question.
Answer the question.
“You say, “Your posts have the same tone as blah blah blah but I have (insert token minority) friends. so its okay that I say this”
Which minority were you referring to?
Comparison – Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
www.merriam-webster.com
Definition of comparison from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary with audio pronunciations, thesaurus, Word of the Day, and word games.
February 15 at 3:32pm · Like
April Hawks then we are equal, because you have avoided some of my point blank questions
February 15 at 3:35pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : And you have proven my point that you suggested that I was either a racist or a homophobe.
“you are being condescending LIKE racists and homophobes…but about women. That does not mean you are racist or homophobic”
It doesn’t mean that.
But it certainly DOES mean that you are comparing me unfavorably and if I let that slide, then I accept the comparison.
So instead of discussing the issue, you compare me to something unpleasant “LIKE racists and homophobes”.
And you don’t see how you’re suggesting that I am either a racist or a homophobe.
February 15 at 3:35pm · Like
April Hawks and you dont see how you are sexist.
February 15 at 3:36pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I don’t believe I’ve avoided any of them.
Feel free to restate them.
But, again, you are reframing the argument, instead of admitting that you suggested by comparison that I am either a racist or a homophobe.
You reframed the question instead of answering it.
You can’t keep answering the questions you want to answer instead of the one I have asked you about five dozen times.
Answer the question.
“You say, “Your posts have the same tone as blah blah blah but I have (insert token minority) friends. so its okay that I say this”
Which minority were you referring to?
February 15 at 3:37pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : If you answer that question, as such, I will answer all of your questions as such.
“The minority that I was referring to in my comparative example was _____.”
February 15 at 3:39pm · Like
April Hawks if I pick one, then I am lying.
February 15 at 3:39pm · Like
April Hawks because there were several in my head
February 15 at 3:39pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : What were the several in your head?
“The several in my head were the following ___________.”
February 15 at 3:41pm · Like
April Hawks homosexuals, black people, hispanic people, asian people, handicapped people, transgendered people,
February 15 at 3:43pm · Like
April Hawks all popped into my head
February 15 at 3:43pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : So you were comparing me to being prejudiced against all of those classes.
Which, I am most definitely not.
Except handicapped people. Fuck those fucking cripples.
JUST KIDDING!
February 15 at 3:44pm · Like
April Hawks now, so what you are saying is that they deserved it but you didn’t? (name calling, etc)
February 15 at 3:44pm · Like
April Hawks no. I was saying you were treating women like OTHER PEOPLE treat those groups of people
February 15 at 3:45pm · Like
April Hawks not like YOU treat those people
February 15 at 3:45pm · Like
April Hawks and I do not in any way mean “those people”
February 15 at 3:46pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Ouch. That was awkward.
February 15 at 3:46pm · Like
April Hawks I realized I misworded and corrected myself
February 15 at 3:46pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I rest my case.
February 15 at 3:46pm · Like
April Hawks how?
February 15 at 3:47pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : ^
February 15 at 3:47pm · Like
April Hawks you have yet to admit you misworded ANYTHING
February 15 at 3:47pm · Like
April Hawks I realized that what I wrote could be misinterpreted and clarified
February 15 at 3:47pm · Like
April Hawks also: so what you are saying is that they deserved it but you didn’t?
February 15 at 3:48pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I know, because I didn’t “misword” anything.
Not when people actually use what I actually said as an example instead of trying to suggest that I am a racist or engage in proliferating rape culture.
That’s my problem with the direction the conversation took.
People saying vile things that came from their own heads suggesting that it was something that I said, as both you and Selene, and pretty much everyone else attacking me has done.
February 15 at 3:50pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : You got angry when I threw your words back in your faces.
You have yet to mention much of what I ACTUALLY said.
February 15 at 3:51pm · Unlike · 1
April Hawks BUT I was open to the possiblity that people would read what I had written it and see it differently than I intended.
February 15 at 3:51pm · Like
April Hawks so I clarified
February 15 at 3:51pm · Like
April Hawks also so what you are saying is that they deserved it but you didn’t?
February 15 at 3:52pm · Like
April Hawks Ok. Well. I am done. You are standing by what you said and blame the rest of the large group of people that are offended instead of looking at the fact that a large group of people ‘re offended by what you wrote. I don’t want to be associated with that. I want my work to be judged on my work, not the association of my name with this mindset
February 15 at 3:57pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre :
“BUT I was open to the possiblity that people would read what I had written it and see it differently than I intended.”
I am also….See More
February 15 at 4:02pm · Edited · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Wow.
I kind of hoped we’d work that out and that our agreeing to disagree would have a more amicable ending.
I truly wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.
Bottom of Form
Bottom of Form
Bottom of Form
Bottom of Form
February 12
This one’s going to sting a little folks…
I like women.
Both as humans and as sexual partners and either and neither and both.
As long as they do the same amount and quality of work I believe they should receive the same amount of pay and vice versa.
But do you seriously think that a sideways vagina dentata with a huge clitoris is a great logo for your feminist horror movement?
I’ve read the feminist horror film theory and criticism have you?
If that’s not a vagina dentata, then a knife plunging into a female victim isn’t a substitute metal male penis being used out of impotence frustration.
Stay classy ladies.
Oh, and anyone that finds this offensive, grow up.
Every single one of you was shoved out of a vagina at birth and if the picture on the right of the attached image arouses you, you have a serious school book sex-ed diagram fetish.
Let’s see how long this stays up before someone complains.
1Like · · Stop Notifications · Share
George C. Cotronis For a guy who likes women, you sure post a lot of about this Women in Horror thing. Does it bother your that much?
February 12 at 3:02am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : I don’t really post that much.
This was just really striking to me.
February 12 at 3:03am · Like
George C. Cotronis Don’t worry, it’s been covered before.
February 12 at 3:03am · Like
Paul Mannering You are aware that female lips most likely evolved to mimic labia – and the reason that women paint them red is because it makes them look sexually aroused, right?
February 12 at 3:04am · Like · 4
George C. Cotronis
February 12 at 3:05am · Like · 4
Scott Lefebvre :
George C. Cotronis: Oh, good. I didn’t think I could possibly be the first one to notice the, er, “resemblance” but I wonder if it was intentional, unintentional, intended to be subliminally suggestive or other.
Paul Mannering: Yes! That’s my point exactly!
February 12 at 3:06am · Like
George C. Cotronis I’m lost as to what your point is. Women have vaginas?
February 12 at 3:07am · Like · 2
Paul Mannering I don’t have an issue with women being sexual. Feminism isn’t about being puritan. If women want to post hot vampire lips and tongues – they should go right ahead
February 12 at 3:07am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : *foreheadpalm* Are you both playng intentionally dense trying to bust my balls?
February 12 at 3:09am · Edited · Like
George C. Cotronis I’m just happy you included yourself in the image.
February 12 at 3:10am · Like · 4
Scott Lefebvre : So, I’m an asshole? Nice retort.
I know you are but what am I?
February 12 at 3:11am · Like
Paul Mannering Not trying to bust your balls Scott. Just saying that IF women want to present themselves in a sexual way – then that is fine with me.
February 12 at 3:11am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I mean, I’d be interested in having an actual conversation about the paradox of using genital iconography to protest being objectified in a supposedly male dominated genre.
February 12 at 3:12am · Like · 1
Paul Mannering I could bring some feminist women to the party
February 12 at 3:12am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I actually usually agree with feminists. My creative writing teacher in college was a lesbian that also taught women studies classes and we got along so well I took both of her Women’s Studies classes. That was an interesting experience. I really fucked up the chi of the class because I was the only man in the class, so whenever they started to get hyped up on stereotyping the male gender I was able to say, “Hey, you do know that I’m sitting right here.” It was kind of fun to be outnumbered and have to defend myself as being guilty for being born with a penis and being heterosexual for a whole year. Toughened me up.
February 12 at 3:17am · Like · 2
Paul Mannering I dealt with the same thing at nursing school. Men are pigs apparently.
February 12 at 3:18am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : Oh shit! Right! I was a “male nurse” too! *laughs*
I mean, let’s admit it, some men are vile humans that objectify women and participate in rape and molestation, and they should be buried under the prison.
But I’m not one of those men.
I do objectify women sometimes, but it’s because I find them sexually desirable sometimes.
It usually doesn’t get in the way of my taking them seriously as creators in the horror genre.
I used to be pretty well acquainted with Cristie Whiles who was a stone cold fox, that would seriously put a knife in you who also worked for one of the baddest gore effects houses in the world.
I never let her being an attractive female fuck up our friendship or get in the way of taking her seriously as a creator of killer special effects.
February 12 at 3:24am · Edited · Like · 2
Kody Boye re: I think women wear red lipstick because they think it’s pretty.
February 12 at 3:40am · Like · 10
Scott Lefebvre : Yes, but also, swollen red vaginal lips.
February 12 at 3:41am · Like · 1
Kody Boye I would hope that you’re not being serious.
February 12 at 3:44am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : Are you kidding me?
Don’t you know anything about secondary sex signs?
I’m not trying to condescend but, yes, I am dead serious.
February 12 at 3:45am · Like
Kody Boye Next time you meet with a female friend and/or aquaintance, I would like you to ask if that is why they paint their lips red. See what response you get.
February 12 at 3:46am · Like · 2
Joanna Turner Considering no other women have commented on this, I feel the need to say some things. First, as a woman I can tell you that I have never applied red lipstick with the intention of making my mouth look like a vagina. Secondly, in response to the photo, if it is a real promo, it is a bad one. If women want to stand up and present ourselves as strong, sexual creatures, throwing our vaginas in peoples faces is the absolute worst way to do that.
February 12 at 3:49am · Like · 9
Kody Boye Everyone knows you throw your vagina in someone’s face by singing about it, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcIONtkkW4Y
Queen Of Vagina: 2 + 2 = Vagina Song (Explicit)
PENIS PENIS PROMISCUOUS
February 12 at 3:51am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Kody Boye: I can’t have this conversation since you have no idea what you’re talking about. I know you’re running a survey on your wall by way of status update, but it’s not a conscious thing and a Facebook Status Update Poll among your female friends doesn’t weigh against decades of social scientific research.
It’s the same sort of research that indicates that we find people, both men and women more attractive if their faces are symmetrical and proportionate. It’s not my opinion and I’m not making it up out of whole cloth.
Go ahead and look up “Why do women paint their lips red?” and if half of the answers from relatively legitimate sources aren’t “Because of the rush of blood into erogenous zones during sexual arousal” I will eat my laptop.
If you want to really have your mind blown, look up, “Why is cleavage arousing to human males?”.
February 12 at 3:58am · Edited · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : Joanna Turner: It is a real promo, sadly, and I agree with you completely.
February 12 at 3:56am · Like · 1
Kody Boye I was mostly amused by that comment in and of itself because it was so outlandish. But, again: Next time you are with a female friend, ask if they are painting their lips to look like vaginas.
But, with that…
February 12 at 3:58am · Like
Michael Kanuckel not sure why that guy thought he had a mic-drop moment.
February 12 at 4:00am · Like · 5
Kit Power #micdropfail
February 12 at 4:01am · Like · 3
Kit Power PS – we need an ironic ‘like’ button…
February 12 at 4:01am · Like · 2
Joanna Turner I feel like this whole women in horror thing is just like, we should be recognized because we are good writers. Not because we are women that write.
February 12 at 4:02am · Like · 9
Kody Boye FYI, I put the jpeg there mostly because I thought it was funny, and because I’m not commenting on the subject anymore. Also: Facebook does not allow animated gifs.
February 12 at 4:03am · Like · 2
Selene MacLeod Only thing that would make it better is a big gush of BLOOD down both sides! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKgBTaLKR84
Vagina Dentata
A funny video my boyfriend and I made. Please feel free to link it if you like -…See More
February 12 at 4:03am · Like · 1
Kit Power RE: The ‘red lips’ thing – obviously, it’s not the ‘reason’ say, an 11 year old girl wears lipstick – she’s doing it because mummy and big sis and the pretty girls on the TV do it and she wants to be like them. But the ‘reason’ in the sense of ‘why this is a thing at all at a societal level and across many cultures and for hundreds of years’ is as Scott Lefebvre articulated – or at least very many academics who’ve spent a ton of time studying the matter think so. Thank you, now reverting to snark mode. Do not adjust your settings.
February 12 at 4:08am · Like · 2
Kit Power Also, #notcommentingonthesubjectanymorecommentfail
February 12 at 4:10am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Yeah, I wasn’t 100% about that dude anyhow. In case you didn’t know it, Kody Boye, you’re a chump and those two guys there ^ are laughing AT you, not WITH you.
1. Read this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_arousal
Learn something about your species before signing on to the internet and popping off about something you know absolutely nothing about.
2. Bookmark the preceding link, then go ahead and block me, unless you really want to go round and round. Posting a meme when you lose a discussion doesn’t mean you win a discussion.
3. I have a degree in psychology, I worked in the field for eighteen years, and I’m almost twice your age. You’re twenty-four years old. You being twenty-four means you think you know a lot more about the world than you actually do.
I don’t know you well enough to not like you, but your bravado without any wisdom to support it is embarrassing. I’m not offended by your dismissal, I am embarrassed and legitimately concerned at your ignorance about the way that the world works.
You’ve got moxie, I appreciate that.
But wisdom is intelligence meeting experience.
Sexual arousal – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org
Sexual arousal (also sexual excitement) is the arousal of sexual desire, during …See More
February 12 at 4:12am · Like · 2
Kody Boye Laughing at me is still with me in this case, mostly because I’m laughing too. LOL.
February 12 at 4:13am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : So you’re either playing stupid, actually stupid or trolling.
February 12 at 4:13am · Like
Kit Power I’m not laughing at all. Possibly because I’m a sociopath.
February 12 at 4:14am · Like · 4
Kit Power *smileyface*
February 12 at 4:14am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : Good job at “Not commenting anymore.” B. T. Dubs. #StayStrong
February 12 at 4:16am · Like · 1
Michael Kanuckel just to chime in on the original intent of this whole thing for a second, this appreciation of women in horror thing… whoever thinks horror fiction is a man’s world must not be aware of the fact that the horror genre (and science fiction) was invented by a woman. that’s my whole opinion on the matter. g’night.
February 12 at 4:17am · Like · 5
Scott Lefebvre : I have, in previous discussions suggested that there should be a Mary Shelley Awards to counter-balance the sausage party of the Bram Stoker Awards. That, I would get behind.
February 12 at 4:18am · Edited · Like · 4
Selene MacLeod Seriously, though Scott…I do have to ask… Why are YOU bothered by it? It’s one picture. What would your ideal Women in Horror Month picture be? The purpose behind WiHM is to celebrate women horror writers, and if sexuality is part of that, then so be it… Only about 25% of horror writers today are women, so I don’t think I need to point out that WiHM serves a deeper purpose within the field. That is, if women are 51% of the population, what is it about horror as a genre that appeals or doesn’t appeal to women? I’d also like to see a Non-Whites in Horror Month, because if the GENDER balance is skewed, so is the ethnic balance… I also wonder if some of the problem is in the classification of writing by women (or persons of Colour). Women write mysteries or paranormal romance or women’s literature or misery lit, but the gatekeepers seem loath to say “This is a horror story by a woman.”
February 12 at 4:18am · Like · 5
Selene MacLeod As for the “Mary Shelley Awards,” the HWA has introduced a scholarship (named for Mary Shelley) to be awarded to a woman each year to further her education in the horror field. So, yeah…
February 12 at 4:26am · Like · 5
Scott Lefebvre : I think we’re arguing the same point, Selene, except from different perspectives.
As I just said, “I have, in previous discussions suggested that there should be a Mary Shelley Awards to counter-balance the sausage party of the Bram Stoker Awards. That, I would get behind.”
And I would, an award that celebrates the accomplishments of women in horror I would truly celebrate.
But WIHM just seems about self-promotion and I have to see a whole month of misguided promotions which sexualize women that participate in the horror genre when sexual objectification and discrimination is the very thing that they claim is being used against them.
Also, this is not a diversity seminar.
We don’t require that the same amount of men participate as exotic dancers and women participate as garbage disposal technicians.
If you want to have a discussion about why the gender split is not equal or representative of the populace and the species, fine, maybe there is something about horror that men just get into more easily, maybe there is a bias against women participating in the horror genre creatively as creators instead of victims.
But the promotions I’ve seen for Women In Horror Month have not seemed to inspire those dialogues and that is what I find annoying about the whole thing.
February 12 at 4:27am · Like · 1
Selene MacLeod Hm…Have you actually clicked on the links and looked at the roundtables and blogs and interviews with women writers? Or tried Malina Roos’ “Was this written by a man or a woman” exercise? I don’t have a problem with shameless self-promotion–hell, isn’t that the reason most of us are ON Facebook?–and the underlying purpose is maybe just to introduce you to some writers you haven’t checked out before.
February 12 at 4:31am · Like · 8
George C. Cotronis There’s no ”proof” that women paint their lips red because they want them to look like vaginas, because no proof can be had. Stop being dumb, you’re harshing my buzz.
February 12 at 4:40am · Like · 5
Kit Power #strawman
February 12 at 4:43am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Yes… but female writers.
I can’t read everything everyone posts on the internet or I’d never have time for anything else.
I’m sure there are some people doing WIHM month right, I have no doubt that some people have their heart in the right place, and I assure you that I have no personal bias against women participating in the practice of writing in any genre.
Coincidentally, I recently realized that the first person mentioned in my author bio is a woman, Helen Hoke. It was truly a coincidence, and, yes, all of the other influences are men, but one is gay and one was a racist and a homophobe. The world is an interesting place. Not everyone’s going to get along.
My problem is with the exclusionary trend of some of the things being done this month in the name of equality.
Reversing a discrimination does not fix it.
That is my point, so allow me to repeat it.
Reversing a discrimination does not fix it.
Having “Women Only” film festivals and “Women Only” anthologies is not only as bad as the gender discrimination against women that is generally accepted to implicitly exist, but it is actually worse because it is a literal and actual discrimination based on gender.
Am I the only person that realizes this?
Making it opposite month and to borrow a metaphor from the civil rights era “making the white people ride on the back of the bus” doesn’t eradicate racism.
It only reverses it.
Most of the people that I’ve seen celebrating women in horror month seem to have a decidedly misanthropistic (in the literal sense, pardon the pun) angle.
I’m just kind of getting bored with people expecting me to feel lucky that I was born with comparatively light skin and a penis.
It’s not my fucking fault and I’m working with the cards I was dealt, so quit trying to label an entire gender as the oppressor.
February 12 at 4:43am · Like · 1
George C. Cotronis Haha. Hokay.
February 12 at 4:43am · Like
George C. Cotronis How much do you hate black history month?
February 12 at 4:44am · Like · 5
George C. Cotronis Wait wait hold up, you think ”white people riding on the back of the bus” is a legitimate thing?
February 12 at 4:45am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : “There is no love in your punches.”
George C. Cotronis, I’m not sure why you persevere in the discussion when you don’t seem to be having any fun with it. Let’s have some fun. Throw in some emoticons if you’re going to dismiss my sincere interest in discussing the paradoxes inherent in Women In Horror Month by comparing it with “black history month” and suggesting I’m a racist because we don’t agree. That’s a pretty serious allegation and you don’t know me that well, and not at all in person.
February 12 at 4:47am · Like · 1
George C. Cotronis You said something, I’m trying to gauge if it was just a reference or if you sincerely believe it.
February 12 at 4:48am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : Yes, George C. Cotronis, because none of us here are adults and have never heard of metaphors or the use of analogy. Of course I believe that ”white people riding on the back of the bus” is a legitimate thing and in no way meant it as an allegory to explain my point that reversing a racist policy makes it just. I also never use sarcasm or irony and wouldn’t recognize it if I saw it. I also think the moon is made of green cheese.
But, sincerely, I don’t think you’re having any fun with this.
It’s decent typing practice for me, but I think Kody flagged the pic on his way out of the conversation and hopefully out of my world, so when Facebook reviews the picture for being offensive for portraying a textbook, non-erotic image of a vagina, this entire conversation thread will disappear into the aether.
Isn’t social-networking awesome?
February 12 at 4:54am · Like · 2
George C. Cotronis It’s gonna take months.
February 12 at 4:54am · Like
Selene MacLeod No…white people at the back of the bus isn’t the same thing. See…Every day is men in horror day, and every other month is men in horror month, whether we want it to be or not. WiHM isn’t trying to exclude men–it’s trying to bring attention to women writers. And some of the comments I’ve read, that women “can’t write horror” because they’re not violent or sadistic enough are both disturbing AND telling. So cozy up with some vag horror and join the party, instead of sitting in the corner complaining about it. You’ll be happier, I promise.
February 12 at 4:56am · Like · 9
Scott Lefebvre : Really? Oh, cool.
Hey, I can tell you’re a smart person.
I like dueling with you, but condescension is just another form of character assassination.
Let’s skip the ad hominem slashes and have an actual discussion because this is something I am legitimately interested in.
February 12 at 4:56am · Like
Kit Power I’m always fascinated* by the way internet communication inevitably leads to people interpreting each others statements in the most negative possible way, rather than assuming the best motive and/or intent. *by which I mean profoundly bored. *smileyface*
February 12 at 4:58am · Like · 7
George C. Cotronis But listen, I’ll be honest with you. While I think a lot of the stuff you say is seriously fucked up, wrong and incredibly sexist, I haven’t been outraged enough yet to block you or unfriend you. It’s probably because you’re so fucking smug about it that I know that nothing I will ever say or do will get through your thick skull. Whenever I do say something, you say some nonsense about strawman arguments and accusations. Basically, you’re misguided as fuck and nothing you say makes a lick of sense to anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together. Leave facebook, go to a con or something and talk with some women who are smarter and better than me at explaining why Women in Horror month is a good thing and why you shouldn’t be upset about it. That’s my genuine advice, because facebook ”friends” are never gonna tell you straight that you’re saying dumb shit. Godspeed.
February 12 at 4:59am · Like · 10
Scott Lefebvre : Selene, this is my problem.
It is EXACTLY the same thing.
You say “every day is men in horror day”.
Right, except when the woman that wrote the Twilight series cashes her royalty checks.
Or when Anne Rice cashed that check when they optioned Interview With The Vampire.
Every day isn’t men in horror day.
Every day is just another day.
Some men sell more books than some women.
Some women sell more books than some men.
The fact that there are supposedly more male authors working in the horror genre is not the world’s problem any more than that fact that there aren’t more male exotic dancers.
And with the recent advances in self-publishing making the playing field EXACTLY level as far as gender is concerned it will be interesting to see if the suggested trend balances it out.
The problem we are having is that I do not agree with your initial claims that “Every day is men in horror day, and every other month is men in horror month”.
As for: “And some of the comments I’ve read, that women “can’t write horror” because they’re not violent or sadistic enough are both disturbing AND telling.”
I never have nor never would say that and I don’t agree with that either.
I’m not sitting in the corner.
And I’m not unhappy.
You decided to comment on a comment thread in response to a picture I posted pointing out the use of a secondary sex characteristic to market a month supposedly dedicated to righting the injustices done in the name of horror.
I’ve read about ten Anne Rice books, all of the Mists of Avalon, I enjoy the work of Erica Jong, mention Helen Hoke in my author bio and I have a fragment of a poem by Sappho tattooed on my left wrist, and a Frankenstein tattoo on my right shoulder, I think that I am passing familiar with female authors. Thanks
February 12 at 5:09am · Like · 2
Selene MacLeod BWAHAHAHA! I just think it seems silly to hang a big accusatory net over one symbol as somehow an indication of WOMEN AGAINST ALL MEN ANYWHERE ANY TIME BECAUSE THOSE PENIS BASTARDS SHOULD DIE!!! The simple fact is that you haven’t really “discussed” anything. YES, red lips and lipstick are designed to mimic a hot vag with lots of bloodflow to it and a signal of sexual availability. Anyone who’s studied anthropology and as you pointed out secondary sexual characteristics knows this. You make a couple of fair points in that it’s not fair or balanced to outright EXCLUDE someone on the basis of gender, however, you’ve only made half a point here. What would be solution to the problem you started with? That is, what do you think would be a better symbol for Women in Horror Month than a sideways vag? Criticize all you want, but offer a solution as well.
February 12 at 5:09am · Like · 4
Selene MacLeod Note, I posted that one second before your comment appeared. Anne Rice, Mary Shelley, and Stephenie Myer… Fine. But in a list of “Best horror authors,” the fact still remains that very few women’s names make the list.
February 12 at 5:13am · Like · 3
Scott Lefebvre : You say, “Anyone who’s studied anthropology and as you pointed out secondary sexual characteristics knows this. ” and I thank you for this, and someone should let Kody know. But I digress.
“What do you think would be a better symbol for Women in Horror Month than a sideways vag?” you ask?
And, seriously, I’m sincerely glad you asked rather than just tossing insult bombs like our friend George.
Something other than a sideways vagina with teeth.
I’d like to suggest the Bride of Frankenstein.
I know that she was created by two men for another man, but at least the character was written by a woman.
February 12 at 5:13am · Like · 3
George C. Cotronis I did you a favor no one else seems willing to do for you.
February 12 at 5:15am · Like · 2
Brendan Philips Yeah Scott Lefebvre … What’s the Solution ?
Popcorn … (Crunch)
By the way … $0.99 jerry only is half a point up on you and that should boil your ass
February 12 at 5:15am · Like · 2
Selene MacLeod She was an interesting character, for sure. Much more so than the much misaligned Bella from Twilight! Ha! I’m not clever enough to insult you (or George). I think we’re too quick to jump in and wag our fingers in this day of the Internetz anyway.
February 12 at 5:15am · Like · 1
Selene MacLeod I mean maligned. It’s 5am…
February 12 at 5:15am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips If I can be the idiot for a second … Isn’t that fanged bloody lip pic a piece from the True Blood marketing campaign just cropped tighter ?
February 12 at 5:20am · Like · 3
Selene MacLeod Could very well be, although I hope the designer at least used a public-domain pic!
February 12 at 5:21am · Like · 3
James P. Harding I may be wrong but I think what bothers Scott about this is he thinks women’s work in horror can stand on its own merits. It doesn’t need to rely on a sexual “gimmick” in order to be noticed and taken seriously. Pitching sexuality perhaps cheapens and demeans work which otherwise holds its own.
Marketing is always gimmicks though, might as well use whatever advantage or opportunity you have to turn the heads and drive sales. I see the point (I think), but to me it’s shrugworthy.
Even so, the precedent is confusing, do you want me to take notice because your work is good or because you can make boners? I don’t think it has to be a dichotomy but when some women want meritocracy while others use sex for attention and advantage, the mixed signals are bewildering.
February 12 at 5:21am · Like · 3
Scott Lefebvre : Did you fuck right off, George C. Cotronis , you insulting cunt? Or are you back to add literally nothing to the conversation aside from insulting static. Don’t get me wrong, I mean “cunt” like the Brits do, in an affable way, like “chap” or “mate”. Now go play with all of those other people that you think have thin skulls and a lot more brain cells than I do. By the way, you smug fuck, I used to be a convention vendor and worked 24 conventions a year, I’ve been personally thanked by Judith O’Dea and Kyra Schon for the work of my company to help them celebrate their characters. I’ll wait while you IMDB them you fucking know-nothing dick. You know fuck all nothing about me but think that it’s perfectly cool to insult me in a comment thread of something I posted when I would never have the brazen audacity or conceit to insult you by commenting on any of the stupid shit you habitually post. So, yeah, smug. Pot kettle black. So say something constructive or apropos to the conversation or fuck right off.
Now… as I was saying…
February 12 at 5:23am · Like · 2
Tristan Vick Men are and always have been the privileged class in our culture, mainly due to the already established patriarchy which lends itself to the net effect of women being lesser privileged, whether it is in terms of job pay, employment opportunities, or something else.
So to complain about women enjoying one small privilege, when you are a member of the privileged class is bigoted. You simply have no reason to complain about it.
And since you draw attention to the vagina as a criticism of a woman’s privilege here, it also makes this post sexist.
If you truly wanted to be dispassionate, you would neither cite gender nor sex, but simply debate the award ceremony on the basis of the quality of writing regardless of the fact that it’s for women only.
February 12 at 5:26am · Edited · Like · 6
James P. Harding “The patriarchy” is a bunch of rubbish, sexist really.
February 12 at 5:27am · Like
Brendan Philips In the utopia … This convo would never happen as all are created equal and all are judged solely on the merit of their work. Alas , the world as is … Sits imperfectly. While 11 months a year business being as usual should suffice. While on that shining 12th month the slighted gender gets the preverbal spotlight to raise awareness of the exceptional work of those who have transcended their golden stars.
February 12 at 5:27am · Like · 2
Selene MacLeod Yay, Camille Paglia! Use what you got to get what you want. But as a woman and as a feminist, that’s one of the difficult lines we have to walk. Women, some might say, are tied to their bodies and their sexualities in a lot of ways. Too sexually desirable or not sexually desirable enough. Do you celebrate your femininity or do you suppress it? If you are sexual, you’re a slut, if you’re not you’re either a prude or a slob. Men have their own anxieties but (and speaking in BIG GIANT BROAD GENERALIZATIONS here) the world doesn’t seem to be as invested in men’s bodies as they are in women’s bodies. And since a great deal of some kinds of horror is related to sexuality and the body, does that then echo down into women’s horror writing? And since women and children, being physically weaker than men in some ways are so often placed in the role of victim in horror stories, I’ve always believed that’s what turns women off horror in general.
February 12 at 5:27am · Like · 2
Tristan Vick Patriarchy is rubbish? Is that your professional opinion as a historian, James?
February 12 at 5:32am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : Selene MacLeod, your last paragraph is what I have been saying all along, or at least trying to when given the chance and people stop throwing insults instead of discussion.
“And since a great deal of some kinds of horror is related to sexuality and the body, does that then echo down into women’s horror writing? And since women and children, being physically weaker than men in some ways are so often placed in the role of victim in horror stories, I’ve always believed that’s what turns women off horror in general.”
I said that you and I are basically in agreement.
Also, I have no idea what you look like.
We have never met, and for all I know you’re a penguin with a laptop living in the south pole.
But I value the content of your comments.
This is why I like having these discussions.
I like having my opinions challenged and coming to an agreement with someone and getting to know them better.
People that are bad at “argument” or when facing defeat resort to personal attacks and insults usually fuck off and good riddance.
Selene, I hope you stick around.
I have enjoyed having a conversation with you.
February 12 at 5:32am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips This is why I’ve always dug pseudonyms … They will have to stand as the equalizer until the genre is taken over by asexual 4th dimensional beings
February 12 at 5:37am · Like · 5
Scott Lefebvre : James P. Harding? Tristan Vick?
You, are two gentlemen who will have beautiful philosophical arguments that will make the non-existent angels weep.
So feel free to talk amongst yourselves.
February 12 at 5:38am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : CIMMISIBIY
February 12 at 5:38am · Like · 1
Selene MacLeod CIMMISIBY CIMMISIBY SIM-SIM-SHERREE… Oh, what, it’s not the Chim-chiminey song from Mary Poppins? Carry on…
February 12 at 5:39am · Like · 2
Brendan Philips Sadly … No , it is not
February 12 at 5:40am · Like · 2
Brendan Philips This would be a cool panel discussion at an upcoming Con … Possibly , possibly. I’d love to host
February 12 at 5:41am · Like · 3
Scott Lefebvre : It’s a private joke between me and Brendan.
We had a room-mate that owned a porno that was titled “Cum In My Mouth I’ll Spit It Back In Yours” that made his room-mates writhe with icky discomfort whenever we mention it. So I like to drop a CIMMISIBY every now and then so he knows I’m paying attention and appreciate his participation.
February 12 at 5:41am · Like · 3
Selene MacLeod Or a podcast/roundtable.
February 12 at 5:42am · Like · 3
Selene MacLeod Snowball! I watched that scene in Clerks, too…
February 12 at 5:43am · Like · 4
Selene MacLeod If it’s menstrual blood it’s called Angel Kissing. That’s a title but I haven’t built a story around it yet…
February 12 at 5:45am · Like · 4
Brendan Philips I think the smiling bloody red lips is bit on the nose while at the same time just horrifically unoriginal. While I’m no author of horror or any other medium … Just a simple entertainer paid to stand around and look pretty while saying sarcastic quips … I do challenge those with the creative prowess to use the talents to put forth a better effort … You wanna be taken seriously , don’t go for the cheap pop. Is hacky and trite.
February 12 at 5:45am · Like · 3
Brendan Philips Oh of he only knew how famous his antics have become
February 12 at 5:46am · Like · 2
Tristan Vick I can simplify my argument here… women can use whatever logo they want. Whether it’s lips of one kind or another, my objections would all be trivial, if I had any. So it makes no difference to me and certainly isn’t worth getting worked up over.
February 12 at 5:46am · Like · 2
Brendan Philips Yeah … But it’s almost 6am here where time actually matters , and you’re gonna get the notifications anyways my man so you might as well jump in with some thunder and pick a side … Red or blue pill !?!?
February 12 at 5:49am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Tell you what Selene MacLeod, I have a challenge for you.
I’m planning on putting out an anthology a month for the next year or so.
At one point, we can put one out called “Angel-Kissing” or whatever.
We put out a call, but figure out how to remove the gender from the entrants and then do a co-jury process to select the entrants based on merit, totally gender blind.
Then we see what we end up with at the end. Interested?
February 12 at 5:49am · Like · 2
George C. Cotronis Nah, I didn’t fuck off, I enjoy reading your misogynistic tripe. I do find it funny that you got offended though, didn’t your original post include the line ”If you get offended grow up?”
February 12 at 5:49am · Like · 3
Brendan Philips Haha … I can attest that Scott is the least misogynistic fella on planet rock. That’s simply just a poor interpretation of the subtext .
February 12 at 5:52am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : If you get offended by a picture of a vagina suitable for a textbook. Don’t worry George C. Cotronis I’ve been trolled before by better. James P. Harding trolls like a God compared to your petty sniping. I even liked your last comment. You get an A for effort and a gold star.
February 12 at 5:53am · Edited · Like
James P. Harding No Tristan sorry, I’m just some chucklehead but I think the patriarchy concept is rubbish because, well, women are the privileged class, are they not? 9 out of 10 homeless people are men, men disproportionately die in the workplace, men have always been expected to sacrifice themselves because “women and children first.” I am all for equal rights, but not for elevating one sex’s rights at the cost of the other’s. We shouldn’t hijack this thread though, and again, I’m just some chucklehead so feel free to disregard everything I’m saying and do so with the greatest of satisfaction.
February 12 at 5:53am · Like
George C. Cotronis I’m not trolling you. I mean, I’m waiting to get blocked, sure, but I’m not really trolling. I just think you need someone to shake you really hard until the dumb sexist shit falls out. You keep talking about how women deserve equal pay, but then add ”as long as they work as hard.” You said you don’t care about gender, but sometimes you might read a woman because she’s attractive. You think that women try and promote their writing with their vaginas. I’m not making that shit up, nor am I misconstruing what you said. It’s obvious that other people (like Selene) are picking up on it but when you get called out you stick your fingers in your ears and go lalalalala.
February 12 at 5:58am · Like · 5
Brendan Philips Scott … We will be discussing how you got battle rap dissed to the point of a Beyoncé mic drop over a lunch very soon.
February 12 at 5:58am · Like
George C. Cotronis Did you know that 100% of deaths during childbirth were women? Makes you think.
February 12 at 6:00am · Like · 3
Kit Power ‘You keep talking about how women deserve equal pay, but then add ”as long as they work as hard.” ‘ – so you think women deserve equal pay regardless of whether or not they do equal work? *confused face*
February 12 at 6:00am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips So wait … His argument that equal pay for equal work … Offends you ?!? I’m not following the logic. That’s essentially what equal pay is my local chapter of the Misfits enthusiastic Friend
February 12 at 6:00am · Like · 3
Scott Lefebvre : George C. Cotronis: Coincidentally, Selene and I came to a point of agreement and will probably be working on a project together sometime in the future.
But you’re till here, arguing for the sake of arguing. *sighs*
Here’s another gold star…
February 12 at 6:00am · Like
George C. Cotronis I think it doesn’t need to be said. If you put that there, you’re implying something.
February 12 at 6:01am · Like · 1
Kit Power ‘You think that women try and promote their writing with their vaginas’ #strawman
February 12 at 6:01am · Like · 2
Kit Power ‘I think it doesn’t need to be said. If you put that there, you’re implying something.’ Why should Scott be held responsible (let alone judged as sexist) for implications you draw, rather than what he actually said?
February 12 at 6:02am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : Kit Power, he’s just going to say that I said that. Don’t you know not to swat at a bee? It might sting you and if a bee stings you, you’re annoyed but the bee dies.
February 12 at 6:03am · Edited · Like
Brendan Philips I’ve been on the convention circuit … All over the USA and Canada. Try and find me a table of women that don’t come in the full on corset bursting regalia to try to get your $20 to purchase their horror themed thimble cover.
February 12 at 6:03am · Like · 2
George C. Cotronis Those sluts.
February 12 at 6:04am · Like · 3
Brendan Philips Women make up for their unfair position in Society by taking full advantage wherever one can be taken in the battle for the almighty dollar … This can’t be the first time this concept has come across your path
February 12 at 6:05am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips And bless them for it …
February 12 at 6:05am · Like · 1
George C. Cotronis I’d argue that that’s a pretty sexist way of looking at it. Maybe they just like corsets or showing their breasts or something.
February 12 at 6:06am · Like · 2
Kit Power I think, George C. Cotronis, you might be better served engaging with what has actually been said, rather than assuming implications and straw-manning. It’s possible you have a valid point there somewhere, but the methodology precludes locating it at present. And Brendan, I KNOW you meant to say ‘SOME women’…
February 12 at 6:07am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips How else did I end up with that horrible THIRST movie and the subsequent autograph by the wonderful young woman who starred in it whilst coming home from Indy … After we solved the mystery of the werewolf origins
February 12 at 6:07am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Holy. Fucking Shit.
Brendan…
I think he’s on the ropes!
I mean, you should never feed a troll, but still.
And even though that other dude was a dick for rewarding himself with a Beyonce mic drop, I am rewarding you with a Beyonce mic drop and a gold star since George doesn’t get any anymore for losing the argument and just being mean-spirited and not making any logical sense.
February 12 at 6:07am · Like · 2
George C. Cotronis Please stop using the word ”strawman,” you’re using it wrong. It’s not a magic word that wins the argument.
February 12 at 6:08am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : Neither is using a #strawman, dick.
February 12 at 6:08am · Like
Brendan Philips That just happened
February 12 at 6:08am · Like · 1
George C. Cotronis You know what, I don’t think I’ll be doing that interview with you man. You’re kind of an asshole.
February 12 at 6:09am · Like · 3
Kit Power Stop using strawmen, and I’ll… oh, wait, ninja’d.
February 12 at 6:09am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : I thought that was a given.
#strawman
And who fucking cares?
I didn’t know who you were two months ago, I won’t remember who you were two months from now.
February 12 at 6:10am · Like
George C. Cotronis That’s pretty fast.
February 12 at 6:11am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Oh, you’re not going to let me provide you with an opportunity to promote yourself?
Geez. I guess I’ll just have to follow-through with everyone else that has completed their interview in a timely manner, like half of the people in this discussion.
February 12 at 6:12am · Like
Brendan Philips Yeah … Send me one of those fucker
February 12 at 6:12am · Like
Scott Lefebvre Oh, I almost forgot… gold star!
February 12 at 6:12am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips What’s a strawman and why do we sometimes hash it ?
February 12 at 6:13am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips Can I give you a nickname … I’m great at that
February 12 at 6:13am · Like
George C. Cotronis Go ahead.
February 12 at 6:14am · Like
Brendan Philips I see by your page you fancy a bit of the Scandinavian Black ?
February 12 at 6:15am · Like · 1
Kit Power ‘You think that women try and promote their writing with their vaginas’. Scott hasn’t said this. So that’s either #strawman or #readingcomprehensionfail . I assumed the former because you seem pretty bright, but it could cut either way. PS It’s only inaccurate by one word – if you’d said ‘SOME women’, it’d still be a crude-to-the-point-of-misleading rewrite, but it at least wouldn’t be the outright falsehood it currently is. Again, I’m genuinely open to the suggestion that you may have a point – I just haven’t seen it yet.
February 12 at 6:15am · Like
George C. Cotronis Nah, I just wasn’t very interested, sorry I snubbed you.
February 12 at 6:16am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : BTW, George, Brendan isn’t trying to troll you, he’s actually quite nice and really does like giving people nicknames.
February 12 at 6:17am · Edited · Like
Brendan Philips Corpse Paint … Old gods … Dark forests type stuff
February 12 at 6:17am · Like
George C. Cotronis Guys, guys. Brendan said above that women who are bad writers (I assume that’s what he means because he called their books crappy) wear corsets (and I guess show cleavage?) to sell books. You are arguing this is NOT sexist. Please tell me if it’s sexist or not because I’m about to lose it.
February 12 at 6:17am · Like
Brendan Philips * Some … Haha
February 12 at 6:17am · Like
George C. Cotronis Some. Fine.
February 12 at 6:18am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I know you weren’t very interested, I get context references. I’ve sent out hundreds of interview surveys. Sometimes they come back, sometimes they don’t. I don’t have to chase anyone. Oh, and by the way? I interview women too and don’t make the interviews about their gender.
February 12 at 6:18am · Like
George C. Cotronis Does that make it less sexist?
February 12 at 6:18am · Like
Brendan Philips Nope … I’m referring to Convention Carney Culture …
February 12 at 6:18am · Like
Scott Lefebvre Easy, Brendan didn’t say “women who are bad writers (I assume that’s what he means because he called their books crappy)”.
You assume a lot, that’s the problem.
February 12 at 6:19am · Like · 1
Kit Power ‘Brendan said above that women who are bad writers (I assume that’s what he means because he called their books crappy) wear corsets (and I guess show cleavage?) to sell books. You are arguing this is NOT sexist.’ #readingcomprehensionfail I’ve made no comment at to the sexism, or otherwise, of Brendan’s statement. I do note in passing that Brendan Philips opinion has no baring or reflection on Scott Lefebvre‘s opinion, what with them being separate autonomous people. I assume.
February 12 at 6:20am · Like · 1
George C. Cotronis I think the echo chamber you have here is actively harming you and making you think your ideas are valid. I’m not a woman and I probably don’t care if women are treated fairly. Empathy only extends that much. But I don’t mind Women in Horror month, or if the logo looks like a vagina. You should really consider why it bothers you so much that you’ve posted about it twice in a week. Why do you care?
February 12 at 6:20am · Like · 3
Brendan Philips Where even the most self respecting will don their tightest fitting garments (some where they have no business at all) to try to Cortes you into buying their homemade Frankenstein do dad / their self published what have you / their Crowd funded this and that, all while donning the sexiest female attire befitting thief chosen horror subculture genre provides them … I’m not speaking in generalities , this is straight from my own eyes while manning a booth for over a dozen shows in two seasons
February 12 at 6:22am · Like · 1
George C. Cotronis Keep moving the goalposts I guess. I argue with Brendan and then I’m told that this has nothing to do with Scott. So fucking what, I wasn’t talking to Scott at the time. Why did my reading comprehension fail? What does ”horror themed thimble cover” fucking mean anyway? Maybe if you made any sense I could argue with you.
February 12 at 6:23am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Woahwoahwoah.
You get housed, make crazy talk and think you can just push reset and restate your initial query like none of the last three hours happened?
Have you decided to finally play nice and stop paraphrasing statements and insulting people?
If so… wait for it…
February 12 at 6:23am · Like
Scott Lefebvre GOLD STAR!
February 12 at 6:23am · Like
George C. Cotronis I dig your smug style antics, but it’s only funny if you do it once. Repetition kills comedy. You should know better.
February 12 at 6:23am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : “horror themed thimble cover” means exactly that.
It’s a cover for a thimble that has a design that is horror themed.
What’s so difficult to understand about that?
It’s plain English.
[ #ReadingComprehensionFail ]
February 12 at 6:25am · Like
Brendan Philips I’m trying to see where I was sexist … That was not my intent. I was being observational . It’s been a long night
February 12 at 6:25am · Like
George C. Cotronis How did I get housed? Kit and Brendan are spouting nonsense and patting themselves in the back, meanwhile no one else has any idea what the fuck they’re talking about, except ”we really want to support Scott on this one, some guy we don’t know called him sexist, call the Scott brigade we got a cheerleader emergency.”
February 12 at 6:25am · Like · 3
George C. Cotronis Hashtags don’t work on facebook you god damn moron.
February 12 at 6:25am · Like · 2
Kit Power George C. – I can see how, if one self identifies as a feminist, one might find the resemblance of the ‘women in horror month’ logo to an engorged vagina potentially problematic and worthy of discussion. If you disagree, that’s fine, but you’ve sure dived down a lot of rhetorical rabbit holes on the way.
February 12 at 6:25am · Like
George C. Cotronis Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. I’m not sure if Scott being outraged about it is because he’s such a hardcore feminist though.
February 12 at 6:27am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Yes, exactly that. GOLD STAR!
February 12 at 6:27am · Like
Kit Power PS I don’t know Scott Lefebvre personally. I’m not defending him. I’m defending good argument and civil debate. Poorly.
February 12 at 6:27am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : “You don’t know me. You never will, son.”
February 12 at 6:27am · Like
George C. Cotronis What’s that quote from?
February 12 at 6:27am · Like
Brendan Philips Just fact checked … You’re misquoting me my man
February 12 at 6:28am · Like · 1
Kit Power I didn’t call anyone a ‘hardcore feminist’.
February 12 at 6:28am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : It’s from a rap song, because I’m a racist.
Remember when you tried to pull that card #fuckstick?
February 12 at 6:29am · Like
George C. Cotronis I don’t know man, do you have any black friends?
February 12 at 6:29am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : And hashtags DO work on Facebook, you god damn moron! #GodDamnMoron
February 12 at 6:30am · Like · 1
George C. Cotronis Only technically.
February 12 at 6:30am · Like
George C. Cotronis It’s a poor addition tbh.
February 12 at 6:30am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips I’ll simplify … In the convention culture , women most often will try to use female charms … To get you to BUY things … Their $20 horror themed thimble if you will. Even if that thimble is their hard work made solid in book form , a self made film … Whatever thing that gets them a spot to justify the $$$$ they spent on a booth so they could make some extra cash. That’s in no way sexist. It’s sales and marketing 101.
February 12 at 6:31am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : You’re adorable. Even when you’re wrong, you just can’t admit you’re wrong.
February 12 at 6:31am · Like
George C. Cotronis I was wrong.
February 12 at 6:31am · Like · 1
George C. Cotronis Now look who’s wrong!
February 12 at 6:31am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : *dies*
February 12 at 6:31am · Like
George C. Cotronis You don’t know me brah.
February 12 at 6:32am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : You get one too. *bows*
February 12 at 6:32am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : Now can we all kind of get along? That was a close one…
February 12 at 6:32am · Like
Brendan Philips I’m still unclear where I was poorly arguing …
February 12 at 6:33am · Like
Brendan Philips And kit was on point too … So there is that
February 12 at 6:34am · Like · 1
Kit Power PS – I’m also not sure Scott expressed ‘outrage’. But it appears we may be moving on here, so maybe I’ll stand down. Brendan Philips – injudicious absence of the word ‘some’ definitely caused me some problems with your statement. I assumed, correctly, that it’s late and you’re tired and it’s what you meant, and you did clarify.
February 12 at 6:34am · Like · 1
George C. Cotronis Nah. I don’t give a shit about what you think about women in horror, but I’m pissed off because I gave it to you straight and you didn’t appreciate it. Because I put in a couple of swear words you got on your high horse and tried to insult me with some weak jabs like we’re in the playground. Instead of always being defensive, take a couple of minutes and consider that you might be an asshole sometimes. Everyone is.
February 12 at 6:34am · Like
Kit Power Ninja’d agian… #speedtypingfail
February 12 at 6:35am · Like
Brendan Philips I was just misquoted as saying something about crappy women authors … When that never was said.
February 12 at 6:35am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Oh, dude, I made this for myself.
I seriously did.
February 12 at 6:35am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : All I was trying to say was that the logo that some people are using as a header for WIHM looks like a swollen vagina with a big clit and everyone lost their fucking minds!
February 12 at 6:37am · Like · 2
George C. Cotronis Your ideas about how sexism works are dumb and you phrase them poorly. This is my synopsis of my argument. It doesn’t matter if you’re a psychologist or been to 200 cons or you best friend is a woman. You can still be wrong (and you are, as far as I’m concerned).
February 12 at 6:39am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : Excellent. We agree to disagree.
Now piss off and stop wasting my time.
February 12 at 6:40am · Like · 1
Kit Power So… you swore at him, he swore back, but you were ‘giving it straight’ and he’s all ‘weak playground jabs’? I can’t emphasise enough how much a I don’t have a dog in this fight, but this argument is made of weaksause. And you only got to your ‘giving it straight’ position by assuming implications that may or may not have actually been there, and straight-up misrepresentation. And I’ve patted no-one on the back, except myself, in the privacy of my own home, for I am a narcissistic sociopath and that’s how I roll.
February 12 at 6:41am · Like · 2
George C. Cotronis I’ll stick around till I get blocked to be honest.
February 12 at 6:41am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : The Facebook blocking function is broken.
It could be a loooong winter.
February 12 at 6:42am · Like
George C. Cotronis Strap in.
February 12 at 6:42am · Like
Scott Lefebvre GOLD STAR!
February 12 at 6:42am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : “I’m not locked in here with you…”
February 12 at 6:43am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips You mentioned the ” Some ” point a few times … You’re more than likely right … But I’m just not sure where I missed it. I’ve seen granny’s in corsets trying to sell me bat shaped cookies … All because they thought it might appeal to people and granny would sell more bat cookies. Granny’s breast were 50 years past her prime and could have just as easily been sheathed in a more conservative garb and she would have probably sold just as many cookies if not more. This example can be made 1000 times over by anyone who has ever been to a Horror / fantasy / genre Convention. If it’s in their head that they can make an extra dollar they will do it, the most heavily scruples artist will go to some strange lengths to eat. That was my point
February 12 at 6:43am · Like · 2
Brendan Philips Please excuse the obvious auto corrects that might bear off my point
February 12 at 6:47am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : By the way, I didn’t tell Kit or Brendan to participate in this conversation, they just wandered in here by themselves.
Probably because vagina.
February 12 at 6:48am · Like · 3
Kit Power Given this will all disappear once the admins actually see the pic, and understanding that this isn’t a democratic process, I vote for not blocking Mr. Cotronis, because I still have this nagging suspicion that there’s a valid point to be had here somewhere… Brendan Philips – Your initial statement (paraphrased) was ‘Women use sex/sexyness/sexuality to sell things” and my feeling was that saying “SOME women…” etc was both more accurate and harder to misinterpret as a sexist generalisation. If you really wanted to be cute, you could even have gone for “I’ve often seen women at conversions…” which would have avoided all confusion, but then you did just that a few posts later. I’m a pedant, what can I say? Just trying to facilitate a clean flow of dialogue and minimise scope for misinterpretation. Because, you know, how hard could that be, on the internet? *violently headbutts wall*
February 12 at 6:49am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips By the way … If anyone would like to see some actual exploitation of women … Feel free to checkout my shameless self promoting plug for my photography Studio …
Www.facebook.com/DigitalInfamy
Digital Infamy Studios by Brendan Philips
Photography and Editing by Infamous Brendan Philips
Artist: 296 like this
February 12 at 6:49am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : Brendan Philips! Really?
Saying “Really” when something pisses you off
February 12 at 6:50am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips My man … I welcome the fun of it all , I enjoyed every second
February 12 at 6:50am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : Oh man! Did you see Sam Jackson do one of my “Really?” when someone confused him with Laurence Fishburne?
February 12 at 6:51am · Like · 3
Brendan Philips I did
February 12 at 6:52am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : Tell me you didn’t think of me when he said that like that. I dare you! I DOUBLE DARE YOU!
February 12 at 6:53am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips And as we just pushed the 200 mark … Your damn right I posted my work . I exploit women on the daily for financial gains. Who knows how far reaching the peeps on this thread extend … Haha.
Pity me gentlemen, I date a Sicilian feminist social worker who models by night.
I never get a chance to be heard unless it’s on my buddies threads on fb @ 6am
February 12 at 6:56am · Edited · Like · 2
Brendan Philips And no matter if I’m right … I’m forever wrong … Haha
Hope the world shines warmly on your faces. I’m tapping out of this one.
Cheers
February 12 at 6:58am · Like · 1
Brendan Philips Final thought
( ).( ) <————— anus
Hahahaha
February 12 at 7:00am · Like · 2
Scott Lefebvre : *dies*
February 12 at 7:01am · Like
Kit Power “the most heavily scruples artist will go to some strange lengths to eat.” Tell me about it. I mean, I’m on fucking FaceBook. Using smileys and everything.
February 12 at 7:03am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : Really dude? Really?
Saying “Really” when something pisses you off
February 12 at 7:03am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Whatever, I walk.
This has burned way too much of my time.
Talk amongst yourselves.
February 12 at 7:05am · Like
Brendan Philips Wait … Were not supposed to stick out cranks in the red vampire chicks mouth ?
I thought that was the whole point.
Thanks for the world shattering revelation Niles Cranes Lumberjack Bearded twin.
February 12 at 7:06am · Like
Kit Power Thank you for your contribution.
February 12 at 7:07am · Like
Jason Lane Man, I just showed up. Did I miss anything?
February 12 at 7:18am · Like · 1
Sue TheRenegade Myhill This thread has made my lunchtime coffee far more entertaining. I love that it’s covered “what is sexism” and “what is feminism”, but I’m very concerned no one questions that this man see’s vaginas on all your faces. Where that leaves those of you with beards I don’t know.
February 12 at 7:22am · Unlike · 9
Scott Lefebvre : Exactly!
Believe it or not, Sue, I’m with you.
February 12 at 7:37am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Oh, and in the end… guess who blocked who?
Troll status = GOD MODE!
February 12 at 7:39am · Like · 3
Sue TheRenegade Myhill You have taken a screen shot. You have “Troll Pro” installed within your dark heart. Well done you.
February 12 at 7:40am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I seriously don’t like to start fights on the internet.
Honestly I don’t.
But I do love ending them.
February 12 at 7:58am · Like · 1
Selene MacLeod SUE WINS THE INTERNET!
February 12 at 8:55am · Like
Lee Arleth I love my new future roomie.
February 12 at 10:49am · Like
Caren Widner Hanten I personally, do not wear lipstick, as I prefer my lips look like an old, dried up, not at all aroused vagina… Wait, what? I’m going to buy a veil.
February 12 at 11:13am · Unlike · 7
April Hawks Scott, i have to say, late to the party as always, that though i own both a mouth and a vagina, i was not connecting the two…
February 12 at 11:23am · Like · 4
Caren Widner Hanten All joking aside, I wanted to weigh in as there really weren’t many other females who did so. I am also familiar with the theory that women’s red lips were a sign of sexual fertility and an indicator that they may be a good mate. However, this theory is generally used during Neanderthal times, when humans had very little going on in the way of intellect and operated almost solely on instinct. To say it holds true today, would be to say we haven’t evolved from that point. Where we are today (most of us anyway) is a far cry from our caveman ancestors. It is a huge stretch to even try to see a vagina in that set of vampire lips, even with them turned on their side and next to a very detailed vaginal diagram. They still look like what they are, vampire lips. Then again, I am not a Neanderthal. For the record, I do not buy into the phallic symbol arguments either. Stabbing is not representative of rape, or sexual penetration, or male dominance. It is representative of murder and brutality. Unless something is clearly shaped like a dick, it’s not a phallus. And a woman’s mouth is not just a vagina on her face.
February 12 at 11:37am · Unlike · 18
Renee Pickituppickituppickitup Hey! Good thing my block function isn’t malfunctioning! By which I mean– this is disgusting and you might rethink how much you “like women” and also consider that anything that follows “I like/love women” tends to be as offensive as the things that follow “I’m not a racist, but…”
February 12 at 12:07pm · Like · 13
Chantal Noordeloos Wait… hold on… (there are too many comments, can’t read them all) are you likening our lips to a vagina? It’s not like we can change the shape of our mouth’s you know. It’s like complaining that men with large noses are phallic, and then saying they can’t be a model for a male movement… It’s all a little bizarre if you ask me. The picture of the vagina doesn’t shock and offend me… but your vision and what you say kind of does. Stay classy? Because of a pair of blood covered lips? YOU see a vagina in it *I* don’t. So I suggest *YOU* should stay classy. You just insulted ever female who has a mouth by saying that if they wear lipstick, they have lips like a vagina. I really don’t know what to say to you, other than ‘grow up’.
February 12 at 1:57pm · Like · 16
Paul DeThroe Damn, I’m a guy and I have lips, didn’t know they were like a vagina. Who knew?
February 12 at 2:46pm · Like · 11
Chantal Noordeloos Apparently if you lick your lips it means ‘cum goes here’. I’ll make sure to bring tissues with me from now on. What if I’m in a restaurant and accidentally lick food from my lips. A random stranger might feel forced to ejaculate on my mouth… wouldn’t want that
February 12 at 2:56pm · Like · 9
Chantal Noordeloos Careful Paul having lips is an invitation for someone to maybe put their penis inside.
February 12 at 2:56pm · Like · 5
Graeme Reynolds I’m a little surprised that a psychologist didn’t see this sort of reaction coming, to be honest. Definitely the train-wreck thread of the week.
February 12 at 2:59pm · Like · 6
Paul DeThroe I’m breaking out the crazyglue right now, Chantal!
February 12 at 3:13pm · Like · 4
Chantal Noordeloos Perhaps we can be modest and cover up our mouths
February 12 at 3:13pm · Like · 4
Paul DeThroe I will grow my moustache over my lips. That explains ZZ Top! LOL
February 12 at 3:14pm · Like · 2
Chantal Noordeloos I don’t know… hair might remind men of ‘bush’. Would you risk it?
February 12 at 3:15pm · Like · 7
Paul DeThroe Darn it, I didn’t think of that!!!! Now I’m screwed. No. No. No I’m not…
February 12 at 3:15pm · Like · 4
Chantal Noordeloos lol
February 12 at 3:16pm · Like · 3
Chantal Noordeloos That’s nice Stephen. Why don’t you convince the rest of the world to do the same, and then we can get rid of ‘women in horror month’. You think that’s what women want? A month? Positive discrimination? You think that’s what we’re looking for? … lemme answer that for ya: No we don’t. We want to be equal. We want our work to be sold for it’s merit, it’s quality, and we don’t want to be judged on our gender… that’s what we want. But we’re not getting that. Fact is, it’s still hard for a woman in the horror market. We still get called out for ‘writing romance’ even when we don’t. So until that changes, we have silly little horror months, where we point out to the reading world: HEY!! We’re HERE!!! hidden between all those male writers that get recognition for the rest of the year… WE COUNT TOO! And we write more than paranormal romance. That’s what this month is for. And if you don’t like it: FIX THE PROBLEM AND STOP WHINING AT US! We have enough shit to deal with. (like posts like this one)
February 12 at 3:23pm · Like · 19
Chantal Noordeloos And stop saying “I love women”. If you loved women, you would be on our side, and you would be helping us. Not calling us scream queens and pointing fingers at the fact that we use our ‘sexuality to get ahead’. I’m seriously wondering if you ever met a woman outside of facebook when I read shit like that. Maybe you need to watch less porn and talk to some real life women.
February 12 at 3:25pm · Like · 12
Levi Everaerts I honestly think this “Women in Horror Month” is doing more bad than good. By having this month, you’re already seperating the women from the men. Let’s actually stand up for equality and not do that shit. Women in Horror Month is popular because it involves women. Horror isn’t popular just because it includes some men. That’s basically the point I want to make.
February 12 at 3:37pm · Like · 2
Levi Everaerts I personally never saw a problem with women using their sexuality to sell. How many girls are going to see action flicks because of the hot guys? I apologize in advance for mentioning it, but Twilight was BUILT on it. It goes both ways. There’s nothing wrong with attractive people using their sexuality to sell, regardless of gender. Is the stuff they sell actually good? That’s debatable, and in my opinion the only thing that counts. Just because Neve Campbell is attractive doesn’t mean that is the only thing she has going for it. And hey, if that’s the only reason people like them, so be it. Sure, it’s a damn shame, but it is what it is. It happens in porn all the time.
February 12 at 3:51pm · Unlike · 2
Chantal Noordeloos Stephen you just said that women tried to get ahead using their sexuality. Stop looking at porn and Jersey Shore for role models. And stop comparing shit that women do to porn. Porn is NOT real life. Some of us are actually trying to get by on talent… and you’ll be shocked to know that some of us are actually talented.
Levi… women don’t want to stand apart. The only reason why there is a female in horror month, is because a lot of female horror authors are trying to break away from the ‘paranormal romance stigma’. I would gladly not need a month like this… I really would. I would like it to be more natural, and I would like people to just treat females the same. Fact is: they don’t. Someone posted the question: would or have you read anything written by a female horror author… I think about 1/3rd of the people answered either “No I wouldn’t, or no I haven’t and not sure if I would”. Horror is a tough genre for us women. If you have a better idea how to fix it… please share! I really would like something more effective than 28 days of extreme spotlight.
And if you are thinking we’re now all swimming in money from all the cash it has made us… think again.
February 12 at 3:58pm · Like · 4
Levi Everaerts Chantal – So you’re agreeing with me. Cool.
February 12 at 4:02pm · Like
Stephen Biro And this is why adults can’t have intelligent conversations with angry people on the Internet.
February 12 at 4:02pm · Like · 3
Chantal Noordeloos Levi.. yes and no. Yes I agree the ‘there should be something better than WIHM’… no I don’t think we should ignore it.
February 12 at 4:06pm · Like
Chantal Noordeloos Stephen, if you are going to be an adult, please come up with some adult arguments. I can’t argue with random stupidity.
February 12 at 4:06pm · Like · 2
Paul DeThroe I don’t give a damn if women use sexuality to sell or not. If you got it flaunt it. Sex sells, even if it isn’t sex you’re selling. That being said, I know quite a few quality horror writers that are women. None of them that I know use sex as a selling point. Chantal Noordeloos, Paula Ashe, April M. Reign, Lori R. Lopez, just to name a few. These women will scare you so badly the last thing you will want is to think about is sex. Their art is well crafted and should sell itself. I don’t mind helping them. My dark fiction blog is full of writer interviews, men and women alike. But you know what, if they chose to use sex, I wouldn’t fault them. But the fact that they put their work up against everyone else and still don’t use sex impresses me to no end. And by the way, I wouldn’t want to offend them with judgmental attitudes like I’ve seen here. js
February 12 at 4:07pm · Unlike · 7
Chantal Noordeloos How does this have ANYTHING to do with women in horror? Can we please stop genre hopping here?
February 12 at 4:08pm · Like · 1
Stephen Biro I’ll give you that. LOL
February 12 at 4:09pm · Like
Stephen Biro Well… we have a problem. Sorry if I pissed you off Chantal… that was not my intention.
February 12 at 4:09pm · Like · 1
Jake Helman I once fought a woman like that.
February 12 at 4:14pm · Like · 2
Chantal Noordeloos Lol, okay… *feels a lot less angry*.
February 12 at 4:14pm · Like · 1
Chantal Noordeloos The thing is, at the risk of sounding like a crazy bra burner… we do actually come across a lot of misogyny in the genre world. And I’m sure it’s equally hard for men in the romance world, btw, not saying that’s good either. But if you don’t write love stories, it’s hard to find an audience or even be represented in the right way. I’ve heard female authors complain that their publishers turned their covers into ‘girly’ while their writing didn’t suit the theme. It’s the little things like that which makes it harder for us. And that is why there is a month like this. Where we remind the world: Don’t forget to read some women. A lot of people don’t read female authors, and they are missing out on so much
February 12 at 4:16pm · Like · 9
Chantal Noordeloos So posts like this one *points at the vagina mouth* and comments like yours, where you talk about women using their sexualities… they set us back. They put us back in that box we are fighting to get out of. Honestly… I just want to be recognized for my writing. Not for my boobs, not for my vagina mouth. Sex sells… yes, but that shouldn’t be in the authors, that should be part of the books. And even then… proper porn is a whole different genre. Don’t look at all women the way you see some famous women. Also… men use their sexuality to get ahead too… look how many crappy actors get parts because they have a nice chest. So it’s just the way of the world… but that should be separate from the real issue. Whether there is a kinky mouth image as a logo or a severed skull.. it shouldn’t matter. What should matter is the stories.
February 12 at 4:19pm · Like · 12
Stephen Biro Dammit! I walked into a minefield knowing I was going to… Jake is much smarter then me. LOL
February 12 at 4:21pm · Like · 2
Jake Helman Walk this way.
February 12 at 4:22pm · Like · 3
Stephen Biro I didn’t know all of that Chantal… That’s terrible. Well, if I can do anything to help, I will. Best of luck with your future writing and novels… I know I need it.
Best!
February 12 at 4:31pm · Like · 2
Barry R. Hunter I guess recommending the movie TEETH would not be cool either!
February 12 at 4:36pm · Like · 6
Brian Canali Why is it upside down?
February 12 at 5:40pm · Like · 4
Jim Mcleod It’s from an Australian textbook
February 12 at 5:53pm · Like · 7
Ray Cluley Women, jeez – you burn your bras then moan about the lack of support…
February 12 at 5:57pm · Like · 3
Hart Fisher Preach it brother! Preach it!
February 12 at 6:13pm · Like · 2
Suzi M Author God help me, I gazed upon Burning Babylon…. I’ve read most of the comments, I’ve looked at the pictures, and all I want to shout from the rooftops is ‘Rotate Counterclockwise 180 degrees!’ on the textbook image, and ‘Rotate counterclockwise 90 degrees!’ on the lips. I had a much more expansive response, but something tells me only a select few would actually read it.
February 12 at 8:04pm · Like · 5
Bryan Hall Does this mean that if a close up of an eye is used for marketing it’s really a picture of an asshole?
February 12 at 11:47pm · Like · 7
Suzi M Author Eyes are the windows to the soul, Bryan… and the colon.
February 12 at 11:47pm · Like · 5
Suzi M Author Finally figured out what this pic reminds me of… The Human Centipede: Victim View.
February 13 at 12:11am · Like · 4
Selene MacLeod BWAHAHAHA!
February 13 at 12:21am · Like · 2
Mark Sparkymarky Woods Can I just chip in here and say as a reader and a horror writer myself, one if my favourite authors is catt dahman and in the nineties was Nancy a Collins. Maybe I am in the minority but I love women writers in horror because I think they have talent, not because they are women. Hell, I’ve probably read a few books by black authors too.
I see why we need a month of women’s horror but it disturbs me that we need to make that distinction in this day age. All people are created equal, but apparently some people are still more equal than others. I don’t give a monkeys who writes a book so long a I enjoy it.
As to the whole vagina/ mouth thing- I’m staying well the fuck away from that argument. I’m a man, I’m not stoopid! Lol
I’d no sooner say ‘ yes love that dress does make you look fat!’
I do think though that the fact this post has so many responses indicates and probably proves that the author of this has gotten exactly what he wanted – attention! Lol
February 13 at 12:57am · Like · 5
Michael Fish Fisher What sucks to me about this post is not the rest of the drama but that they are using the lips from the True Blood poster a few years ago. I am sure it was properly licensed stock photography, but all I see when I see those lips is True Blood.
February 13 at 1:15am · Like · 3
Scotty Schrier I don’t care what anyone says, but I cannot read that without singing “Vagina Dentata” to the tune of Hakuna Matata.
And now, neither can you.
February 13 at 1:16am · Like · 5
Selene MacLeod Scotty, I already posted a YouTube video someone did of that. Scroll up and check it out! It’s pretty funny.
February 13 at 1:38am · Like · 2
Jim Mcleod What about gingers in horror month? Hell nobody wants to know about us
February 13 at 3:24am · Like · 1
Claire Riley Well Jim Mcleod, I’m a female horror writer and a red head so I’m screwed apparently! Better put on some lipstick!
February 13 at 6:20am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : http://www.amazon.com/The-Monstrous…/dp/0415052599
The Monstrous-Feminine: Film, Feminism, Psychoanalysis (Popular Fictions Series)
www.amazon.com
In almost all critical writings on the horror film, woman is conceptualised only…See More
February 13 at 12:40pm · Like · 1
Selene MacLeod http://www.amazon.com/Men…/dp/0691006202/ref=sr_1_1…
Men, Women, and Chain Saws: Gender in the Modern Horror Film
www.amazon.com
Do the pleasures of horror movies really begin and end in sadism? So the public …See More
February 13 at 5:16pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre http://lovecraftwork.blogspot.com/…/02/vagina-dentata.html
February 13 at 5:19pm · Like
Jerrod Balzer Oh, for fuck’s sake. They’re just using the True Blood lips, a show based on books written by a female author. They shouldn’t be ripping off HBO or whoever’s property it is, but it’s recognizable and gets their nonprofit message across easier.
The author of this post would have been far more constructive putting his hand down his pants rather than the keyboard to endulge in any fantasies over the picture.
February 14 at 5:58pm · Edited · Like · 3
April Hawks Ok. Here I am! You started off your post with “This one’s going to sting a little folks..” That does not, to me, sound like you are not planning on inciting drama.
February 15 at 11:44am · Like · 1
April Hawks This might take me a bit because there is A LOT to dig through
February 15 at 11:45am · Like
April Hawks also, this :”Stay classy ladies.” sounds condescending and rude.
February 15 at 11:48am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : That’s fair, take your time, I’m an insomniac and not liable to be able to get to sleep today between work shifts in addition to everything else I have to do.
February 15 at 11:50am · Like
April Hawks Your original post shows a vagina and you yourself say that you expect it to get pulled by FB, so again, you are expecting SOMETHING.
February 15 at 11:50am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : It does sounds condescending and rude.
If people had said that they felt the original comment was condescending and rude, I would have to respect their opinion.
But as you well know, that is most decidedly not what they said.
February 15 at 11:51am · Like · 1
April Hawks That is why I am here. You asked what I think
February 15 at 11:52am · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : I know. And I respect your opinion.
February 15 at 11:52am · Like
April Hawks I happen to own BOTH a vagina AND a set of lips. I nwver would have connected the two in terms of women in horror month
February 15 at 11:53am · Like
April Hawks and that logo, WHICH is not the official logo, anyway.
February 15 at 11:53am · Like
April Hawks BUT I have to say several things about the whole conversation. The Gold star thing made you look like an ass.
February 15 at 11:54am · Like · 1
April Hawks It said to me that you had no viable argument or defense and instead you were just being condescending and rude…again.
February 15 at 11:55am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I also know that the post shows a vagina.
I expected it to be flagged because of the vagina, not the obvious, to me, vagina dentata comparison.
I like vaginas. I have no problem seeing them.
But I get that some people have to kind of brace themselves before seeing one. It’s the puritanical society we live in.
Where a woman’s nipple gets an image banned, but a man’s nipple is fine, and nursing mothers have to defend their rights to feed their children in public.
February 15 at 11:55am · Unlike · 1
Scott Lefebvre : One thing at a time please.
February 15 at 11:56am · Unlike · 1
Scott Lefebvre : I have to catch up.
February 15 at 11:56am · Unlike · 1
April Hawks Ok. Back to the picture then
February 15 at 11:57am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Not yet. Let me catch up.
Point. Counter-point.
February 15 at 11:57am · Like
April Hawks mmmkkaaay.
February 15 at 11:57am · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I know that you said you have both a vagina and a set of lips and that you never would have connected the two in terms of Women In Horror Month.
But, let me ask you this.
Have you ever used your mouth in a heterosexual manner.
As in, to be direct, performed oral sex on a man.
February 15 at 11:59am · Like
April Hawks I have used my mouth in MANY ways, Scott. number one, I think that that is an innapropriate question and number two, I am not going to answer that.
February 15 at 12:00pm · Like · 1
April Hawks and there was no sexual connotation in my initial sentence of that response
February 15 at 12:00pm · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : The reason I ask, is that if the mouth is a vaginal surrogate in other situations, then it is not inconceivable that you can see the analogy as presented in accordance with the concept of the vagina dentata.
I’m not trying to sexualize the discussion on a personal level.
I’m not trying to attack you personally or be inappropriate, but, by definition the is going to a somewhat “inappropriate” conversation.
If you can’t handle speaking plainly about what we’re talking about then we’re not going to get anywhere with this.
It will just resort to you being angry about something that you think it is inappropriate to talk about.
February 15 at 12:04pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : JC, wait your turn.
February 15 at 12:04pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : In response to the “Gold Star” thing, George was taking turns engaging in the conversation and then trolling and insulting my acquaintances.
You can’t feed a troll, but you can wear them down.
February 15 at 12:07pm · Like
April Hawks You asked me personally. And I am not answering personally. Yes, mouths get used that way. BY BOTH GENDERS. By all orientations. They also get used for eating…nourishment (WHICH in the case of the mouth picture in question, is MY association)
February 15 at 12:07pm · Like
Lee Arleth *sigh* Same asylum, different lunatics.
February 15 at 12:07pm · Like
April Hawks looks like she just had lunch, to me
February 15 at 12:07pm · Like
April Hawks Lee, are you jumping in to call me a lunatic?
February 15 at 12:08pm · Like · 1
April Hawks I think I am being rational, here
February 15 at 12:08pm · Like
Lee Arleth If the strait jacket fits…
February 15 at 12:09pm · Like
April Hawks AND i was invited in to this conversation BY Scott
February 15 at 12:09pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Easy Lee Arleth.
We’re having a civil discussion.
February 15 at 12:09pm · Like · 1
April Hawks thank you scott
February 15 at 12:10pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : April was a friend of mine, and I think we’re trying to hash it out.
February 15 at 12:10pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Lee Arleth‘s just being protective.
I’ve had to deal with a lot of shit in the past couple of days.
Thank you, Lee, I appreciate the thought.
February 15 at 12:11pm · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : As I was saying…
Duly noted, April.
But you said that you didn’t make the association between a vagina and a mouth.
That’s why I asked you a personal question.
So, we agree that the mouth is sometimes used as a vaginal surrogate.
And, please don’t take this as condescending, but you are familiar with the concept of the vagina dentata, yes?
February 15 at 12:12pm · Edited · Like
Lee Arleth Just fucking around. It’s what I do.
February 15 at 12:12pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Listen girls… you’re BOTH pretty. *laughs*
February 15 at 12:13pm · Like · 1
Lee Arleth And yes, I have Scott Lefebvre‘s back. I love my new future roomie.
February 15 at 12:14pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : JC, you do realize that your initial statement was an ad hominem attack, yes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Ad hominem – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org
An ad hominem (Latin for “to the man” or “to the person”[1]), short for argument…See More
February 15 at 12:14pm · Like
April Hawks Scott, whether I am pretty or not has no basis in this conversation. but thank you anyway.
February 15 at 12:18pm · Like
April Hawks I am familiar with vagina dentata
February 15 at 12:18pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I know, I just use that to break up fights and was trying to keep it light.
February 15 at 12:19pm · Like · 1
April Hawks but it emphasizes the very thing that people are getting upset about.
February 15 at 12:19pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : So if you’re familiar with the concept of the vagina dentata, then why am I the worst person in the world as of late according to some people?
Or at least according to you.
February 15 at 12:19pm · Like
April Hawks I didnt say you are the worst person in the world
February 15 at 12:20pm · Like
April Hawks I said I disagreed with what you said and how you said it
February 15 at 12:20pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I know. I apologize for the misattribution.
But there’s a taste of what I’ve been dealing with for the past few days.
February 15 at 12:20pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : That aside, what did you disagree with that I said and how I said it?
February 15 at 12:21pm · Like
April Hawks but you have been giving as good as you are getting, Scott. Let’s be honest
February 15 at 12:21pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Have I? Howso?
And I would appreciate it if you also answered my question so we can stay on point, and I will do the same out of common courtesy.
February 15 at 12:22pm · Like
April Hawks As I said, I don’t think that a female mouth, lipstick or no, fangs or tongue or not is immediately comparable to a vagins
February 15 at 12:22pm · Like
April Hawks I refer to my mention of your use of the gold star and the mike drop pic
February 15 at 12:23pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I didn’t say that “a female mouth” is immediately comparable to a vagina.
I referred to it in our discussion now because you said that you didn’t make the association.
In general, I don’t see every female mouth as a vagina, which, has been attributed to me, often.
I said that this one, specifically, with the dark red lips and fang and blood did.
February 15 at 12:24pm · Like
April Hawks and I disagree with your interpretation of it. You are completely entitled to have an opinion.
February 15 at 12:25pm · Like
April Hawks But I, likewise, am entitled to think that I disagree with it
February 15 at 12:26pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Then we are in agreement, and I think that we agree to disagree.
So why are we not imaginary friends anymore?
February 15 at 12:26pm · Like
April Hawks lol. Hold on. I am not done yet
February 15 at 12:27pm · Like
April Hawks you have stated several times before that you disagree with WIHM in general. You also mentioned taking a female penname and writing rape revenge to get in on it.
February 15 at 12:29pm · Like
April Hawks The first part, I am really genuinely confused about .
February 15 at 12:29pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I will wait until you have finished your thread to reply.
February 15 at 12:30pm · Like
April Hawks The second part is pure sexist bullshit, generalizing a WHOLE gender to penning rape revenge for horror.
February 15 at 12:30pm · Like · 1
April Hawks you’re up
February 15 at 12:30pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I disagree with WIHM because it is self-promotional in tone.
I know that it is not universally self-promotional, but most of what I have seen has been self-promotional.
Not, “Hey, check out these awesome female authors.” but “It’s WIHM, and I’m a woman, so give me money.”
It doesn’t seem very altruistic.
Whereas the anthology that I suggested that Selene and I collaborate on would be completely gender blind and altruistic in that all proceeds would be intended to go to a shelter for domestic abuse or, if it raises enough proceeds, towards establishing a scholarship or grant for a woman author.
The problem with a thing being exclusionary based on gender is that it is sexist.
Inverting a sexist trend doesn’t balance it, it inverts it.
When women were not allowed to vote, that was sexist.
Allowing them to vote was egalitarian.
Allowing only women to vote and removing that right from men would be an inversion of that pre-existing sexism.
It’s bad logic to compare one thing to another but I am not the best logician.
If I may make another comparison, if a woman takes on a male pen-name to level the playing field, that is seen as a justifiable thing.
If a man takes on a female pen name to take advantage of a month that promotes female authors it’s sexist.
Stephen King used to write Harlequin novels to make money before he was famous.
So, now do you also hate Stephen King for using a female pen name to take advantage of what is traditionally considered a female dominated genre?
I also never said that women only write rape/revenge.
That is not even a paraphrasing, that is an inference.
I said that’s what I would do.
Your turn.
February 15 at 12:42pm · Like
Selene MacLeod Lots of men write erotica under female pen names.
February 15 at 12:44pm · Like
April Hawks I don’t hate people that find a way to deal with shitty cards (women in horror, men in romance) I hate that the cards are shitty.
February 15 at 12:45pm · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : I know.
February 15 at 12:45pm · Like
April Hawks BUT having said that, the cards ARE shitty
February 15 at 12:45pm · Like
April Hawks Scott, my inference was based on your wording. You said that you wanted to cash in on Women in Horror Month. And you said that you would write such and such under a female pen name. There are two things that I find offensive in that.
February 15 at 12:46pm · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : Continue. I will wait till you have rested.
February 15 at 12:47pm · Like
April Hawks number 1. The fact that we HAVE to have a WIHM means that based on your gender, you are already more likely to sell, every day of the year.
February 15 at 12:47pm · Like
April Hawks So WHY IN THE HELL would you talk about taking ADVANTAGE of something that is set up in a SMALL way to level the playing field?
February 15 at 12:48pm · Like
April Hawks that is n’t funny to me.
February 15 at 12:48pm · Like
April Hawks Second, your wording was such that my inference was not illogical or random or way off base. it was worded as such that that is a HIGHLY logical inference.
February 15 at 12:50pm · Like
April Hawks It was just as insulting as though you had said that you wanted to figure out how to work a unicorn into your story.
February 15 at 12:51pm · Like
April Hawks the way that you word things makes it look like you are waiting to piss someone off and then asking why they are. In my opinion
February 15 at 12:52pm · Like · 1
Selene MacLeod There’s a well known anecdote about Robertson Davies, who had a big long white beard. One day someone at a lecture asked him about the phallic significance of the beard. He ignored the question. A few minutes later, though, he responded by asking the asker if he asked other men why, by shaving, they castrated themselves every day…
February 15 at 12:54pm · Unlike · 1
April Hawks Your posts have the same tone as blah blah blah but I have (insert token minority) friends. so its okay that I say this
February 15 at 12:57pm · Like · 2
April Hawks your turn
February 15 at 12:58pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I’ve been composing in another window.
Give me a couple minutes.
February 15 at 12:59pm · Unlike · 1
Selene MacLeod It also feels like you’re trying to get us to agree with you when you say a woman’s mouth is the same thing as a vagina. And that crude sexual metaphors are somehow a mark of your breeding and intellect because you read a couple of books and had one feminist teacher. Your comments come across like “Huh-huh VAGINA!”
February 15 at 1:00pm · Unlike · 3
April Hawks THANK YOU
February 15 at 1:00pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I’ll add that to the reply.
February 15 at 1:01pm · Like
Chris Ralski Amesquita wow
February 15 at 1:43pm · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre :
You said that “hate that the cards are shitty.”
I also hate it when the cards are shitty.
But having a month-long event that excludes one gender in favor of the other is not a good example of the egalitarian spirit.
If it’s any consolation, the submissions for Till Death Do Us Part, an anthology that I thought you were planning on contributing to until recent events, have been about equally split in gender.
But, I hadn’t noticed, until this furor, because I don’t see authors as male or female.
I value their contributions equally, and there are some that only provided their first and middle initials and I don’t know what gender they are and I don’t care.
I don’t judge someone’s writing based on their gender, I base their writing based on their writing.
To address your points:
Number 1:
Some women sell more books than some men.
Some men sell more books than some women.
Do all men sell more books than all women?
No. I don’t sell more books than Anne Rice.
Do men, as a whole, sell more horror books than women? Yes.
Do women sell more romance books than men? Yes.
I would be just as equally displeased with a “Men In Romance Month” and I can only imagine the feminist backlash that would cause.
Does this mean that there is a gender bias in horror and romance? Yes.
But you don’t hear about the gender bias in romance against men.
It’s reflective of the market.
You can’t make people buy what they don’t want to buy.
Are customers more likely to buy a horror book written by a man and a romance novel written by a woman?
The market information seems to indicate that.
Now, what does all of that have to do with the original comparison between the unofficial logo for WIHM and the vagina dentata?
Nothing in my original comment suggests a dialogue about the gender bias in horror.
I said, “As long as they do the same amount and quality of work I believe they should receive the same amount of pay and vice versa.” which I believe is quite egalitarian.
The conversation about gender bias in horror was injected in the comments section.
Number Second:
An inference by any other name is still an inference, April.
What did I say?
I said, and I am quoting your paraphrasing, which I feel is just in the interest of saving time, rather than finding my original comment, “You also mentioned taking a female penname and writing rape revenge to get in on it.”
Then, what did you say that I mean by what I said?
“generalizing a WHOLE gender to penning rape revenge for horror.”
That’s what you wrote, not what I wrote.
What I meant by what I said was what I said.
Your inference is your projection.
“It was just as insulting as though you had said that you wanted to figure out how to work a unicorn into your story.”
I also did not say that. You said that.
February 15 at 2:00pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre This is my primary problem with this whole thing.
It’s not what I said, but what has been said on my behalf that is truly horrifying to me.
I posted an example of what I saw as a vagina dentata and people inferred that I said some of the vilest rape culture stuff that I have seen in years and I am honestly and truly offended.
And I never said any of it.
People said things like, again, a paraphrase in the interest of expediency, “every woman’s mouth is a vagina”, “that’s all a woman’s mouth is good for”, “I guess every woman is asking for it.”, and a much wider variety of truly offensive rape culture stuff that I find truly offensive and disturbing, and those were the people that were attacking me in the name of defending women.
This is where their minds go when they see a picture of what I saw as a vagina dentata next to a textbook diagram of a vagina.
I have been in relationships with women that have been the victims of physical and sexual abuse and I don’t find that funny in the least.
I would have and have never said anything like the rape culture phraseology that was used by self-proclaimed defenders of women.
You said, “the way that you word things makes it look like you are waiting to piss someone off and then asking why they are. In my opinion”
But you don’t see how you’re using your opinion as a premise to defend your position which is a logical fallacy.
What you said means exactly what you said, but it seems to me that you want your opinion to be entered as a fact.
So, if I allow that, then it becomes a fact that “the way that (I) word things makes it look like (I am) waiting to piss someone off and then asking why they are.”
As I said, that wasn’t entirely my intention.
I figured that the comparison of the unofficial logo for Women In Horror Month to the concept of the vagina dentata would be something that some people would disagree with, but my question, as stated was, “do you seriously think that a sideways vagina dentata with a huge clitoris is a great logo for your feminist horror movement?”
If, as many people have stated, they don’t agree that it is a fair comparison to a vagina dentata, then fine, we can agree to disagree.
But that’s not what the conversation has become.
Instead, by projected attribution I am becoming the focus of all of the available wrath for the gender bias in horror and rape culture, and none of the rape culture stuff was anything I ever said, but was rather inferred/projected by others which is what truly disturbs me.
Also, for the most part, aside from this conversation, for the most part, the comments have been personal attacks (see also: ad hominem) rather than rational discussion.
So instead of sparking a rational discussion of gender bias, which I was actually hoping to do, I’ve been called pretty much everything awful imaginable by people that don’t really know me.
Did you know that Bret Easton Ellis received death threats from the National Organization for Women because of American Psycho?
This is what the internet is.
It is, again, for the most part, not a place for rational discussion of potentially controversial issues.
I was truly surprised at how many authors were suggesting that I be censored and not allowed to express my opinion.
Congratulations, you wonderful open-minded gracious, pious individuals.
You’re now on the same side of the people that burned witches, burned crosses on people’s lawns, and martyred Galileo for saying that the earth was not the center of the universe and any other person that has engaged in prejudice, persecution, and censorship.
I hope you’re proud of yourself.
You don’t know me. You said things about me personally. That is prejudice.
I expressed an opinion that you do not agree with.
That does not make me a bad person, and, stop and think about it, this is cyber-bullying, pure and simple.
People I don’t know coming to my Facebook page, looking for something that they think will offend them, and when they are offended, insulting me although they don’t know me.
What if I killed myself because of all of the awful things that people had been saying about me?
I won’t because I know that they’re just expressing their anger the only way that they know how and those people don’t know me as a person, just as an opinion.
But what if I did?
Would there be a candle-light vigil?
Would you share the news on your Facebook wall and say it almost made you cry?
You say, “Your posts have the same tone as blah blah blah but I have (insert token minority) friends. so its okay that I say this”
Again, the comparison to racism, which is the first step towards Godwin’s Law.
Next I will be compared to Hitler.
I am not a racist, and I do not appreciate and will not allow the comparison so I would appreciate it if you would refrain from that comparison.
Because if you say that I am a racist, and I allow that, then it becomes a “fact” in your argument.
I’m having enough trouble with being called a sexist for the time being.
February 15 at 2:00pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre Selene:
You said, “It also feels like you’re trying to get us to agree with you when you say a woman’s mouth is the same thing as a vagina. And that crude sexual metaphors are somehow a mark of your breeding and intellect because you read a couple of books and had one feminist teacher. Your comments come across like “Huh-huh VAGINA!”
Allow me to refute this by saying that I didn’t say that and you are paraphrasing me and if I allow that paraphrasing, then it becomes a “fact”.
Please use what I actually wrote, because what you wrote was, if I may deconstruct it…
“It also feels like you’re trying to get us to agree with you when you say a woman’s mouth is the same thing as a vagina”
Not every woman’s mouth. This picture of a vampire’s mouth, specifically reminded me of the vagina dentata theory.
“And that crude sexual metaphors are somehow a mark of your breeding and intellect because you read a couple of books and had one feminist teacher.”
It’s not a crude sexual metaphor, it’s actually a part of feminist film theory.
If I’m crude, then Carol J. Clover, author of “Men, Women, and Chain Saws: Gender in the Modern Horror Film” and Barbara Creed, author of “The Monstrous-Feminine: Film, Feminism, Psychoanalysis” are also crude, but, I remind you that both are female authors and probably would not be subjected to the same kind of rape culture attribution and ad hominem attacks that I have been subjected to. Remember the cover of Barbara Creed’s book?
You said I “read a couple books”.
Actually, I took an entire semester of film study focusing exclusively on Horror Film Theory and have read a fair amount of books on a wide variety of subjects, but in response to the ad hominem attacks, and I encourage you to look up the term so that you will know the definition so you can avoid it in the future, I have had to defend the statements that have been made about my person rather than the issue, as, you will note, your statement is.
You don’t address the argument, you suggest, and rather condescendingly, I might add, that “read a couple of books and had one feminist teacher.” That’s not true, but that’s what you said.
I’m sure you didn’t mean to lie, but, you did. Because what you said was not true.
Are you mean-spirited? Are you trying to hurt my feelings? Are you a liar?
I don’t know about the middle one, but I’m pretty sure the first and last don’t apply.
You said, “Your comments come across like “Huh-huh VAGINA!”
That is your interpretation and not something I said, again an attribution.
If I accept it, it becomes a fact.
I didn’t say that. You said that.
Do the comments of Carol J. Clover, author of “Men, Women, and Chain Saws: Gender in the Modern Horror Film” and Barbara Creed, author of “The Monstrous-Feminine: Film, Feminism, Psychoanalysis” come across like “Huh-huh VAGINA!”?
Well do they?
If so, then we’ll have to agree to disagree on the matter.
I’d like to think that our agreeing to disagree does not mean that we have an irreconcilable difference.
February 15 at 2:00pm · Like
April Hawks ok. fair enough. However, this whole post is based on your inference of the lips.
February 15 at 2:05pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : A comparison of a set of blood red lips with fangs and a tongue poking out of it to a vagina dentata. Yes, I never denied that.
But what about all of the personal attacks, villification, the rape culture comments that other have injected into the conversation?
And, most importantly to me, as a person, why did you defriend me?
February 15 at 2:07pm · Like
April Hawks You are correct. One month does not make it equal. The thing IS that this month is designed to counter the assumption that horror is for men. This month does NOT say “Men suck. Don’t read their work.” It says. “hi. yeah. We are here too.”
February 15 at 2:08pm · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : You didn’t answer my questions.
What about all of the personal attacks, villification, the rape culture comments that others have injected into the conversation?
And, most importantly to me, as a person, why did you defriend me?
February 15 at 2:09pm · Edited · Like
April Hawks I was writing the above comment as you were posting them
February 15 at 2:09pm · Like · 1
April Hawks yours
February 15 at 2:09pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre My apologies.
I concede the thread to you.
February 15 at 2:10pm · Like
April Hawks I can’t speak to what others have posted about you. I am not in their heads. I am discussing this with you, now, in a civil discussion.
February 15 at 2:11pm · Like
April Hawks Names were called all around. I saw that and I stayed away from it.
February 15 at 2:11pm · Like
April Hawks Yes, I unfriended you. I did not block you.
February 15 at 2:12pm · Like
April Hawks But regardless of what your intention was/is, this has blown up in a BIG way
February 15 at 2:12pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : That, is impossible to deny.
February 15 at 2:13pm · Like
April Hawks and definitely not in a positive light for you by any stretch of the imagination
February 15 at 2:13pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Continue… or do you concede the thread?
February 15 at 2:15pm · Like
April Hawks continuing. just composing
February 15 at 2:16pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Understood.
February 15 at 2:16pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : By the way, just so you know, I may save all of this and write a book about it.
February 15 at 2:21pm · Like
Selene MacLeod The difference between you and Carol Clover is that she took the time to carefully construct her argument using examples and references. You threw a picture up and some comments that said “Hey, VAGINA!” Anyone who’s taken basic communication theory knows that there are several parts to communication: The message, the medium, and the reception. The picture at the left is full of innuendo (“Now that you mention it, I did recognize something…”) Nudge nudge wink wink. You drop a match on an inflammatory subject and then expect it NOT to blow up?
February 15 at 2:24pm · Unlike · 1
Scott Lefebvre : Again, attribution.
I didn’t prove that the earth orbits the sun.
I thought everyone accepted that.
I didn’t come up with the theory of the vagina dentata, I just figured that most people knew about it, at least people that are into horror.
My comments did not say “Hey, VAGINA!”
Please, use what I actually said and refrain from paraphrasing.
I have studied communication theory.
I knew what I was doing.
If a comparison is innuendo, then, I agree with you, although that’s a slippery slope semantically speaking.
“Nudge nudge wink wink.” = attribution.
And, actually, yeah, as I’ve said, I didn’t expect it to blow up.
Stimulate some discussion, sort of like the one we’re having now?
I hoped so.
The personal attacks, villification, the rape culture comments that others have injected into the conversation?
Not so much.
February 15 at 2:31pm · Like
Selene MacLeod And right there is where you went wrong. You reduced women, particularly women horror writers, to one body part. And then told us WE weren’t being “classy” by using this symbol (which isn’t even the official symbol).
February 15 at 2:33pm · Unlike · 1
Selene MacLeod I’m pointing out how these things have come across, regardless of your intent.
February 15 at 2:33pm · Like
April Hawks I have composed this; and I am not done yet.
February 15 at 2:35pm · Like
April Hawks Ok. This conversation happened on this thread
• Kody Boye re: I think women wear red lipstick because they think it’s pretty.
February 12 at 3:40am • Like • 10
•
Scott Lefebvre : Yes, but also, swollen red vaginal lips.
February 12 at 3:41am • Like • 1
•
Kody Boye I would hope that you’re not being serious.
February 12 at 3:44am • Like • 2
•
Scott Lefebvre : Are you kidding me?
Don’t you know anything about secondary sex signs?
I’m not trying to condescend but, yes, I am dead serious.
Later, you call Kody a Chump, which, I believe is actually the FIRST name called in the thread.
ALSO, you called George a Cunt and he had not called you any names.
February 15 at 2:35pm · Like
April Hawks so that is where the name calling came from.
February 15 at 2:35pm · Like
April Hawks No matter HOW much you read, no matter HOW much you study, until you are no longer a white male, you have no basis for critiquing WIHM.
February 15 at 2:36pm · Like
April Hawks NOR can you make generalizations as to why women paint their lips. I do it because, as Kody mentioned, it makes me feel pretty.
February 15 at 2:37pm · Like
April Hawks whatever the basis was LONG LONG LONG ago, things change.
February 15 at 2:37pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Selene, I didn’t reduce women horror writers to one body part.
That, again, is attribution.
You, by misattributing what I said by suggesting that your interpretation is what I actually said, are not being truthful.
I don’t think you’re a liar.
But you are coming across as one, regardless of your intent.
I also never said it was the official symbol.
I have conceded that point.
February 15 at 2:38pm · Edited · Like
April Hawks you are being condescending again, btw, in your comments about the semantics about what was actually said vs interpretation.
February 15 at 2:38pm · Like
April Hawks and it seems that instead of refuting the points that we make with facts, you are reverting to analasys of what we said and our inference or interpretation of what you said. So I jguess I will stick with asking point blank questions
February 15 at 2:40pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I did call Kody a “chump”.
And I did call George a “cunt”.
I also call people “dicks” and “assholes”.
I have never said that anyone was a racist or was “asking for it” or had a small penis, or any of the other personal attacks that I’ve had to deal with.
February 15 at 2:41pm · Like
Selene MacLeod Exactly. Thank you, April. I’m pointing out how the things that you said in your post have been interpreted by everyone. The entire tone of your post and the discussion that followed was sarcastic and vulgar, and any point of intellectual debate was lost. “Stay classy, ladies” will ALWAYS be read as “Women, stop acting like whores if you want to be taken seriously by me and my frat buddies, but so what if you do because we’re too busy looking at your tits.”
February 15 at 2:41pm · Unlike · 1
April Hawks so what you are saying is that they deserved it but you didn’t?
February 15 at 2:41pm · Like
Selene MacLeod And this, by the way, is the reason I don’t allow name calling on my wall.
February 15 at 2:41pm · Unlike · 2
Scott Lefebvre : April, just because I refute you doesn’t mean I’m being condescending.
I assure you that is not my intention.
If it was, I’d just call you both something sexist and be everything that people say I am.
I’m pointing out the fallacies in your arguments.
It’s not condescension. It’s refutation.
I never said you were stupid or below me.
I said that you have been paraphrasing and misattributing and projecting your opinions as my intent and I stand by that statement, because you have been doing that.
February 15 at 2:43pm · Like
April Hawks As long as they do the same amount and quality of work I believe they should receive the same amount of pay and vice versa.
February 15 at 2:44pm · Like
April Hawks This statemnet is loaded, and I will tell you why:
February 15 at 2:44pm · Like
April Hawks It consists of a presupposition that this is not typically the case.
February 15 at 2:45pm · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : Which is why I said, “As long as…” defining the term.
February 15 at 2:45pm · Like
April Hawks that is where the loading is
February 15 at 2:46pm · Like
April Hawks that is the pressuopsition that that would not be the case
February 15 at 2:46pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : For example, when I was working on a locked adolescent ward and I was required to perform more physical restraints than my female co-workers I feel that I should have received a higher rate of pay.
That sword has two edges.
February 15 at 2:46pm · Like
April Hawks It also presupposes that male slackers are not paid more for slacking than their female counterparts
February 15 at 2:47pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : As I said, “As long as they do the same amount and quality of work I believe they should receive the same amount of pay and vice versa.”
February 15 at 2:48pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I am arguing for equality.
You are claiming there is a gender bias.
There is a gender bias, but it doesn’t always work against women.
You don’t own the exclusive right to claiming sexual prejudice.
February 15 at 2:50pm · Edited · Like
April Hawks Again. It is the wording
February 15 at 2:50pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : No. It’s your interpretation.
The words mean exactly what they mean.
February 15 at 2:50pm · Like
April Hawks Scott, more often than not, it REALLY does work against women
February 15 at 2:50pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Oh really?
I don’t mind reframing the argument.
Would you like to?
February 15 at 2:51pm · Like
April Hawks I am trying to tell you WHY there was a blow up!
February 15 at 2:51pm · Like
April Hawks I am not the only person that interpreted your wording the way I have
February 15 at 2:51pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I know why there was a blow up.
That’s not what you said though.
You said, “Scott, more often than not, it REALLY does work against women.”
February 15 at 2:51pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Oh, so was I “asking for it”?
February 15 at 2:52pm · Like
April Hawks I have been telling you all along my interpretations of what I have seen.
February 15 at 2:53pm · Like
April Hawks and you have said that you dont undwrstand why it pissed people off
February 15 at 2:54pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I know, but that’s the problem, April.
I respect you as a person and respect your opinion, but your opinion is just that, your opinion.
But when people start to say that their opinion is your intention and then attack you based on their opinions of your intentions, that’s how women were burned as witches.
February 15 at 2:55pm · Edited · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Your opinion is not what I said.
February 15 at 2:56pm · Like
April Hawks this is not a witch hunt, Scott
February 15 at 2:56pm · Like
April Hawks not even comparable
February 15 at 2:56pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : You suggested I was a racist by comparison.
February 15 at 2:57pm · Like
April Hawks when?
February 15 at 2:57pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre “You say, “Your posts have the same tone as blah blah blah but I have (insert token minority) friends. so its okay that I say this”
Again, the comparison to racism, which is the first step towards Godwin’s Law.
Next I will be compared to Hitler.
I am not a racist, and I do not appreciate and will not allow the comparison so I would appreciate it if you would refrain from that comparison.
Because if you say that I am a racist, and I allow that, then it becomes a “fact” in your argument.
I’m having enough trouble with being called a sexist for the time being.”
February 15 at 2:58pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Selene suggested I was crude and uneducated.
February 15 at 2:59pm · Like
April Hawks I said token minority. you inferrred that I meant a race minority
February 15 at 2:59pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : That is what happens when you paraphrase what someone actually said into what you think they meant.
February 15 at 2:59pm · Like
April Hawks so you dont like it when I do it but its ok for you to do?
February 15 at 3:00pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Fine then, yes, I did make that assumption.
Because I have friends in many endangered species and they are certainly in the minority.
What did you mean then?
That I am a homophobe?
Say what you meant.
Or may I ask for clarification, which minority were you referring to, since, statistically speaking, women as a gender are in the majority.
Your move, Hawks.
February 15 at 3:01pm · Like
April Hawks It was a vague example to illustrate a point.
February 15 at 3:02pm · Like
April Hawks as to how your posts came across to me
February 15 at 3:02pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Then make it less vague.
I ask, again, which minority were you referring to, since, statistically speaking, women as a gender are in the majority?
February 15 at 3:02pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : At least when I am called out for misattribution, I retract and ask for clarification. You and Selene just dodge.
February 15 at 3:04pm · Like
April Hawks Less Vague: You are saying you understand what you are talking about because you took a class from a lesbian friend and that it was full of lesbians
February 15 at 3:04pm · Like
April Hawks I am NOT DODGING
February 15 at 3:04pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : You are, and, also, I never said that the class was full of lesbians.
Please admit that you misattributed that and restate your premise.
February 15 at 3:05pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : And, if you’re sticking with your preceding statement, you are suggesting that I am a homophobe, which I also do not appreciate.
February 15 at 3:06pm · Like
April Hawks I actually usually agree with feminists. My creative writing teacher in college was a lesbian that also taught women studies classes and we got along so well I took both of her Women’s Studies classes. That was an interesting experience. I really fucked up the chi of the class because I was the only man in the class, so whenever they started to get hyped up on stereotyping the male gender I was able to say, “Hey, you do know that I’m sitting right here.” It was kind of fun to be outnumbered and have to defend myself as being guilty for being born with a penis and being heterosexual for a whole year. Toughened me up.
February 15 at 3:06pm · Like
April Hawks you are sright you didnty say all lesbians
February 15 at 3:07pm · Like
April Hawks And I didnt say homophiobe. I said you felt qualified to talk about women in general because of it
February 15 at 3:07pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : So you presumed that I meant that the class was full of lesbians?
It was mostly women, and I was most decidedly the “minority” in that example.
So, which minority were you referring to, since, statistically speaking, women as a gender are in the majority?
February 15 at 3:08pm · Like
April Hawks I misread it and corrected myseldf above
February 15 at 3:08pm · Like
April Hawks women in HORROR are a minority.
February 15 at 3:09pm · Like
April Hawks which is, I believe what this was about
February 15 at 3:09pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Is that what you meant?
You were comparing women in horror with women in horror?
Or did you really mean some other kind of “minority”.
Your words, not mine.
February 15 at 3:10pm · Like
April Hawks Scott, I am telling you what I got from what you wrote and instead of taking it under advisement you are arguing about why you are right. I was trying to help clarify
February 15 at 3:10pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I am informing you that I think that you were suggesting that I was a racist and I am asking for clarification and you are dancing backwards.
February 15 at 3:11pm · Like
April Hawks your posts and comments are condescending
February 15 at 3:12pm · Like
April Hawks I am not dancing backwards
February 15 at 3:12pm · Like
April Hawks you are free to interpret what I say.
February 15 at 3:12pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : You’re avoiding the question.
February 15 at 3:12pm · Like
April Hawks I have not called you sexist, racist, or any other ists
February 15 at 3:13pm · Like
April Hawks nor have I implied racism
February 15 at 3:14pm · Like
April Hawks or homophobia
February 15 at 3:14pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I’m not trying to interpret what you said, I am asking for clarification.
You said…
“You say, “Your posts have the same tone as blah blah blah but I have (insert token minority) friends. so its okay that I say this”
Which minority were you referring to?
February 15 at 3:14pm · Like
April Hawks I said it has the SAME TONE
February 15 at 3:15pm · Like
April Hawks in that it is condescending bullshit with the added pat on the head of “but I like women so it is ok”
February 15 at 3:16pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : So you’re not saying that I’m a sexist, racist, or homophobe.
You’re saying that I was using the same tone, in a sexist context that a racist or a homophobe would use?
But not suggesting I am racist or homophobic.
February 15 at 3:17pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I am asking for clarification which you will not address.
February 15 at 3:17pm · Like
April Hawks I just clarified it!
February 15 at 3:18pm · Like
April Hawks In fact, I spelled it out!
February 15 at 3:19pm · Like
April Hawks In the social sciences, the term “minority” is used to refer to categories of persons who hold few positions of social power
February 15 at 3:20pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : No.
You reframed the question to suit your needs.
You said…
“I said it has the SAME TONE… in that it is condescending bullshit with the added pat on the head of “but I like women so it is ok”
I asked and you will not answer…
“You say, “Your posts have the same tone as blah blah blah but I have (insert token minority) friends. so its okay that I say this”
Which minority were you referring to?
May I ask that you answer the question like this?
“The minority that I was referring to in my comparative example was _____.”
February 15 at 3:20pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Such as whom?
February 15 at 3:21pm · Like
April Hawks women
February 15 at 3:21pm · Like
April Hawks minority is not about population percentages, Scott
February 15 at 3:22pm · Like · 1
Scott Lefebvre : You can’t compare a thing to itself.
February 15 at 3:22pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : That’s not what I asked.
Answer the question.
February 15 at 3:22pm · Like
April Hawks WHAT?
February 15 at 3:22pm · Like
April Hawks The minority I was referring to in my example was women
February 15 at 3:22pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : No.
The example you were using was “my posts” as in…
“Your posts have the same tone as blah blah blah but I have (insert token minority) friends. so its okay that I say this”
If my posts have a tone that is insulting to women then what are you comparing my posts to? Other posts that also use women as an example?
February 15 at 3:24pm · Like
April Hawks THAT IS NOT THE POINT.
February 15 at 3:25pm · Like
April Hawks I am not dancing, it is irrelevant
February 15 at 3:26pm · Like
April Hawks insert whatever minority you want. It does not mean that I am saying you are whatever ist
February 15 at 3:26pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : It is.
I am asking you a direct question.
It’s not irrelevant.
You just refuse to answer it because you don’t want to have to admit that you compared me to some other sort of discrimination because you know that I will accuse you of that discrimination by association.
It’s not beside the point, it IS the point.
I’m not going to “insert whatever minority you want”.
I want you to tell me which minority you meant.
If it can’t be women and isn’t about race or sexuality, then what is it?
February 15 at 3:29pm · Like
April Hawks using a comparison dies not mean that I attribute the same characteristics
February 15 at 3:30pm · Like
April Hawks If I compare an apple to an orange that does not all of a sudden mean that the apple IS an orange
February 15 at 3:30pm · Like
April Hawks they both grow on trees that doesnt mean that in every aspect they are the same
February 15 at 3:31pm · Like
April Hawks or peaches, or cherries…
February 15 at 3:31pm · Like
April Hawks you are being condescending LIKE racists and homophobes…but about women. That does not mean you are racist or homophobic
February 15 at 3:32pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Actually, yes, that is exactly what it means.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/comparison
You were proposing a similarity in that you used “like” instead of “different from”.
And you are STILL dodging the question.
Answer the question.
“You say, “Your posts have the same tone as blah blah blah but I have (insert token minority) friends. so its okay that I say this”
Which minority were you referring to?
Comparison – Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
www.merriam-webster.com
Definition of comparison from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary with audio pronunciations, thesaurus, Word of the Day, and word games.
February 15 at 3:32pm · Like
April Hawks then we are equal, because you have avoided some of my point blank questions
February 15 at 3:35pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : And you have proven my point that you suggested that I was either a racist or a homophobe.
“you are being condescending LIKE racists and homophobes…but about women. That does not mean you are racist or homophobic”
It doesn’t mean that.
But it certainly DOES mean that you are comparing me unfavorably and if I let that slide, then I accept the comparison.
So instead of discussing the issue, you compare me to something unpleasant “LIKE racists and homophobes”.
And you don’t see how you’re suggesting that I am either a racist or a homophobe.
February 15 at 3:35pm · Like
April Hawks and you dont see how you are sexist.
February 15 at 3:36pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I don’t believe I’ve avoided any of them.
Feel free to restate them.
But, again, you are reframing the argument, instead of admitting that you suggested by comparison that I am either a racist or a homophobe.
You reframed the question instead of answering it.
You can’t keep answering the questions you want to answer instead of the one I have asked you about five dozen times.
Answer the question.
“You say, “Your posts have the same tone as blah blah blah but I have (insert token minority) friends. so its okay that I say this”
Which minority were you referring to?
February 15 at 3:37pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : If you answer that question, as such, I will answer all of your questions as such.
“The minority that I was referring to in my comparative example was _____.”
February 15 at 3:39pm · Like
April Hawks if I pick one, then I am lying.
February 15 at 3:39pm · Like
April Hawks because there were several in my head
February 15 at 3:39pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : What were the several in your head?
“The several in my head were the following ___________.”
February 15 at 3:41pm · Like
April Hawks homosexuals, black people, hispanic people, asian people, handicapped people, transgendered people,
February 15 at 3:43pm · Like
April Hawks all popped into my head
February 15 at 3:43pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : So you were comparing me to being prejudiced against all of those classes.
Which, I am most definitely not.
Except handicapped people. Fuck those fucking cripples.
JUST KIDDING!
February 15 at 3:44pm · Like
April Hawks now, so what you are saying is that they deserved it but you didn’t? (name calling, etc)
February 15 at 3:44pm · Like
April Hawks no. I was saying you were treating women like OTHER PEOPLE treat those groups of people
February 15 at 3:45pm · Like
April Hawks not like YOU treat those people
February 15 at 3:45pm · Like
April Hawks and I do not in any way mean “those people”
February 15 at 3:46pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Ouch. That was awkward.
February 15 at 3:46pm · Like
April Hawks I realized I misworded and corrected myself
February 15 at 3:46pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I rest my case.
February 15 at 3:46pm · Like
April Hawks how?
February 15 at 3:47pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : ^
February 15 at 3:47pm · Like
April Hawks you have yet to admit you misworded ANYTHING
February 15 at 3:47pm · Like
April Hawks I realized that what I wrote could be misinterpreted and clarified
February 15 at 3:47pm · Like
April Hawks also: so what you are saying is that they deserved it but you didn’t?
February 15 at 3:48pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : I know, because I didn’t “misword” anything.
Not when people actually use what I actually said as an example instead of trying to suggest that I am a racist or engage in proliferating rape culture.
That’s my problem with the direction the conversation took.
People saying vile things that came from their own heads suggesting that it was something that I said, as both you and Selene, and pretty much everyone else attacking me has done.
February 15 at 3:50pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : You got angry when I threw your words back in your faces.
You have yet to mention much of what I ACTUALLY said.
February 15 at 3:51pm · Unlike · 1
April Hawks BUT I was open to the possiblity that people would read what I had written it and see it differently than I intended.
February 15 at 3:51pm · Like
April Hawks so I clarified
February 15 at 3:51pm · Like
April Hawks also so what you are saying is that they deserved it but you didn’t?
February 15 at 3:52pm · Like
April Hawks Ok. Well. I am done. You are standing by what you said and blame the rest of the large group of people that are offended instead of looking at the fact that a large group of people ‘re offended by what you wrote. I don’t want to be associated with that. I want my work to be judged on my work, not the association of my name with this mindset
February 15 at 3:57pm · Like
Scott Lefebvre : “BUT I was open to the possiblity that people would read what I had written it and see it differently than I intended.”
I am also.
I know that.
I think that we’re starting to agree.
I think it was worth it.
Not only am I open to the possibility, but that’s almost exclusively what happened.
I was attacked personally with anything anyone thought would hurt my feelings, and it was implied that I said vile things that I did not say nor would ever say.
Can you see why I am offended?
As for your question which I have no problem answering, even if you always layer it in among other questions.
If by “they” you mean whatever the fuck that kid’s name was and “George” then you are phrasing the question in an interesting way.
If by “it” you mean to be insulted, then, no.
No one deserves that.
I can be rude sometimes, especially when underslept and annoyed.
I’m not always the best person I can be and neither are you.
You unfriended me and suggested I was a racist or whatever, do I have to list the list of stuff you thought I was prejudiced against again?
I called one dude a “chump” and another one a “cunt”.
Not my brightest shining moment.
We all have our off days.
But I would have no problem if people just said I was a “dick” or a “ballbag” or an “asshole” or a “cunt” or any other general term of dislike.
Fine, I freely admit and am well aware I can be an asshole sometimes.
Instead people had some pretty vile things to say about me.
Just scroll up the thread if you need examples.
Also, most of what people said I said was awful, and not what I said.
So, since you’re all about equality, does that seem equal to you?
February 15 at 4:02pm · Edited · Like
Scott Lefebvre : Wow.
I kind of hoped we’d work that out and that our agreeing to disagree would have a more amicable ending.
I truly wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.
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